Asheboro Alcohol Vote July 29
7/31/08: Comments are now closed due to shift to a theological debate from the original intent of this post.
Update: The results of this election will be posted here.Citizens of Asheboro will have the chance to vote on alcohol thanks to the Committee for the Future of Asheboro
- Jack Atwater, retired dentist
- Clark Bell, attorney
- Jennifer Bennett, attorney
- Huntley Bossong, president, Bossong Hoisery Mills, Inc.
- James Culberson, retired CEO, CommunityOne Bank
- J.B. Davis, president and CEO, Klaussner Furniture Industries, Inc.
- Gifford Del Grande, purchasing agent, Asheboro Elastics, Inc.
- Steve Eblin, vice president, Randolph Hospital, Inc.
- Jay Foscue, senior vice president, Klaussner Furniture Industries, Inc.
- Richard Garkalns, vice president, Insurance Associates of the Triad, Inc.
- George Gusler, president, Asheboro Randolph County Chamber of Commerce
- Brooks Hedrick, city executive, First Bank
- Ross Holt, concerned, life-long resident of Asheboro
- Bill Hoover, retired CEO First American Savings Bank and community volunteer
- Dr. David Jones, director, North Carolina Zoological Park
- Lois Kearns, community volunteer
- Reid Kearns, partner Kearns and McDowell, real estate developer
- Jimmi Luther, owner and operator, Leo's Car Care
- Carol Matney, former owner and operator of Matney & Associates and community volunteer
- Ted Matney, retired CEO, Banker's Trust
- Charlie McCrary, chair, Acme-McCrary Corp.
- Jon Megerian, partner Megerian & Wells, attorney
- Robert Morrison, president and CEO, Randolph Hospital, Inc.
- Ronnie Pugh, president, Pugh Oil Co.
- Jute Ramsay, founder and former CEO, Rampon Products, Inc.
- Bill Redding, CEO, Acme-McCrary Corp.
- David Renfro, publisher, The Courier-Tribune
- John Revell, plant manager, Oliver Rubber Co.
- Nan Revell, community volunteer
- Ward Russell, financial manager
- Brooke Schmidly, associate, Moser, Schmidly & Roose Attorneys at Law
- Stephen Schmidly, partner, Moser, Schmidly & Roose Attorneys at Law
- Bob Shaffner, retired CFO Klaussner Furniture Industries, Inc and chair of the Board of Randolph Hospital, Inc.
- Archie Smith Sr., retired attorney
- April Thornton, director of marketing and public relations, Randolph Hospital, Inc.
- John O. Toledano, retired corporate secretary, Acme-McCrary Corp.
- Joe Trogdon, former mayor, City of Asheboro
- Brad Wellington, Technimark, Inc.
- Russ Williams, executive director, North Carolina Zoological Society.
Schmidy might be right: "with Montgomery County voters recently approving alcohol sales and the City of Randleman eligible to have another alcohol vote next year — other areas might be poised to benefit from the economic development of restaurants and hotels that could come to Asheboro if alcohol was available."
It's up to you voters!
posted by The Editor @ 8:39 PM
290 comments
290 Comments:
Trying again (with links to cut & paste at the bottom of the comment):
Hi Rob. Long time no hear from. And yes, you're late to the annexation party. That little exercise in civic greed is soaked in alcohol too.
It IS up to the voters. But after attending the council meeting last night where "the usual suspects" voted to vote, it's crystal clear that "the whos" on Schmidly's List are going to have a fight on their hands. And well they should.
It is incomprehensible to me that ANYONE associated with Randolph Hospital would openly support an alcohol referendum. But then again, considering who's involved, perhaps it's not so incomprehensible. Based on past experience, I believe that two of those whos would probably sell their mothers for a fast/easy buck - after all, they had no problem putting their hands on a Bible and lying under Oath.
Schmidly could not be more WRONG. It was surreal last night to stand there and watch my former attorney represent the very people he sold me out to.
(Pastor/Dr. John) Rogers is right. We should be proud of what make us unique and family-friendly and MARKET IT.
Alcohol is not going to save our little corner of the world. I've worked all over North Carolina - and it hasn't saved anyone else. One good example is Duplin County. They have a world-famous winery. But the county itself is still dirt-poor.
Schmidly's List: http://drjshousecalls.blogspot.com/2008/05/schmidlys-list-on-alcohol-in-asheboro-i.html
Last Night's Meeting: http://drjshousecalls.blogspot.com/2008/05/lubrication-without-representation.html
Is it possible to get a "VOTE YES" yard sign?
Just don't tack on the "because we care".
It really makes me sad that people in this town actually believe alcohol is bad. I have heard individuals around town commenting on crime, drunk drivers, and religion.
The bottom line is if people want alcohol they are going to buy it. I personally don't want drunks driving 20 miles through neighborhoods just to get beer. Let them have it.
Crime? That’s already here, and alcohol will have a marginal effect if any. There may be some initial problems but I have full faith in the local law enforcement to keep people in line.
Religion? Jesus made wine for a wedding celebration, it wasn't grape juice. Get over it! A quick history lesson on world culture will confirm that.
Alcohol would give something Asheboro has never had. A nightlife, fine dining, and a town that doesn't shut down at 9:00pm.
Tourism would increase dramatically.
Can you imagine how many jobs would be created?
I for one will vote yes, and I will encourage the thousands of voters I know to show up and vote YES also.
Oh Good Lord. I have lived all over this state (having been treated like garbage by several of the big names on this list) . . . including a dirt-poor county that boasts a world-class winery. Alcohol is NOT a magic broom that will instantly swish Asheboro to class and prosperity. You are kidding yourself - both about the benefits and the costs. In this case, the costs KILL - neighborhoods and individuals.
BTW, most of your points were addressed in my post on the subject.
If you want alcohol, just say you want alcohol. But do NOT disguise that desire as a "need" or cloak it in nobility and/or "concern" for the community.
And by the way, if you're so gung-ho for booze on every corner, WHY aren't you signing your name . . . like the prominent "whos" on Schmidly's List?
Dear Dr.
No one said Alcohol is a magical broom. This is exactly the simple minded thought process some people have in this town. It reminds me of a certain Daycare Director that lectured me about not having to see alcohol in the stores. Meanwhile across the room her daughter was drinking a glass of wine.
Save your rhetoric for yourself.
I too have lived all over this state and have also lived in a town that was dry as this one is. I was there when alcohol was voted in. The downtown has grown immensely, new restaurants, theaters, ect. The City used the extra income to restore buildings, sidewalks, and parks. So please don't tell me there is no benefit.
Honestly I can count on one hand the times I drank last year. It would however be nice to go out with a friend once and awhile and have a cold one.
My post was not directed at you but I am flattered to have struck a chord with you.
Please tell me just how alcohol ruins our perception as a family town? Truth be told it wouldn't.
There are laws in place to limit where they can go and be.
Why don't you focus your obvious passion for this town and community on something worth while?
Illegal Immigration
Drugs
Meth labs
Gangs
ect...
Thank you for your time,
Mr. Jones
Business Consultant
VOTE YES Asheboro!!
Say yes to Freedom of personal Choice!!
Glad you're "flattered" Mr. Jones/Business Consultant (do you have a first name? May I call you Indiana?). Allow me to stike back.
"Mr. Jones", about ten years ago, I tried focusing my passion for this town and community on "something worthwhile".
For my trouble I was driven out of town by the prominent people on Mr. Schmidly's list.
My passion for Pediatrics . . . and doing the right thing by a patient not-even-my-own . . . got me fired. SO DO NOT EVER TALK DOWN TO ME ABOUT DOING "SOMETHING WORTHWHILE".
She's ten years old.
Two of the "who's" on that list of booze-lovers are guilty of perjury, contempt and fraud - and they have been given a free ride by everyone else on that list - including Schmidly himself.
Wink and nod.
Now these consultant-loving unconvicted felons are telling everyone that Asheboro not having alcohol is the reason they can't recruit young doctors/young professionals to the community. It's such a load of horse-hockey.
The REAL reason Bob Morrison and Steven Eblin are having trouble recruiting new doctors to Asheboro is because they have treated so many of us like the lowliest mill worker at the grungiest mill . . . to be stomped or cast off at the boss's discretion. In Eblin's book, good Pediatricians are a "dime a dozen".
These two businessmen MUST be drinking something to think that word has not gotten around medical circles. They can slam the lid down here, but the world is not a vacuum.
If a doctor's sole reason for coming to Asheboro is based on whether or not we have alcohol - maybe we don't need that doctor here.
FYI, Indiana, I'd LOVE to come back home and focus my "passion" here. But I cannot do that in profesional safety/security as long as what the people on Steve Schmidly's list have done . . . or overlooked . . . goes unaddressed.
I still cannot wrap my head around it: Hospital official PUSHING BOOZE of all things!?!
Let's move on. Our newspaper publisher (David Renfro) is on the aforementioned list of "who's-who's" and has refused to tell my story-of-public-service-woe to the newspaper-reading citizens of Asheboro . . . because the guilty parties are his friends - and we simply can't have his friends exposed for the liars and cheats they are. Mr. Renfro won't publish my letters. He won't sell me ads (to promote my blog). He has refused to print ANYTHING substantial/relevent about my appearances at city council meetings. Moreover, the Editor told one of my Dave's Mountain neighbors that he "can't stand to hear my name".
Smooth move. Tell me again, the Courier Tribune is not biased/not pushing an agenda/not an accessory to a cover-up.
But hey, we get to hear all about alcohol and the wonderful things it will bring to the community. The big money is backing the booze.
My blog has, at one point or another, spoken to several of the topics you mention. Again, until recently, not many people knew about the blog - because so many of the powers-that-be would like to shut it down. For it reveals the ugly side of medicine & law & journalism in Asheboro (and to some extent, Greensboro - as a Cone-owned doctor played a roll in the mess I cleaned up - the "embarrassing" mess Randolph Hospital covered up).
Back to alcohol. Let's talk about "rhetoric". NONE of the who's are talking about the hidden costs of alcohol (which I see in my practice nearly every day). All they can see are dollar signs.
What I can see are the street corners (not far from my Mama's house) that will become cesspools of vice if Asheboro allows it to be sold in grocery stores. Are you honestly thick enough to believe that adding alcohol to the mix of "drugs, meth labs and gangs" will be a good thing - and our local law enforcement will be able to control it?
READ THE PAPER "MR. JONES". THEY CAN'T CONTROL IT NOW.
I've worked in Pediatric Emergency Departments. I've seen what alcohol does - to good families/parents who were not paying attention - to the children of bad parents - to the spouses of drunks - to the innocents in the wrong path at the wrong time. So Mr. Jones, Business Consultant, why don't you put down your laptop - and that drink you have once in a great while - and spend a day in my shoes? Then tell me we need easy access to booze in Asheboro.
Just because YOU are "responsible" does not mean that your neighbor will be. And we ARE our brother's keeper. We ARE our community's keeper. That's what the people of Asheboro have done for years in keeping alcohol out.
Asheboro is the last large town in North Carolina that is dry. It is a kind of badge of honor. It is also something that we should be proud of - and could market (in a "Mayberry"/family-friendly kind of way), if the powers-that-be would wake up out of their Country-Club stupor and do something original - and truly "visionary" for a change.
Sometimes the right thing is not the comfortable/easy thing (we're back to that "something worthwhile" theme). Sometimes freedom and our personal choice needs to be about what is best for everyone - not just our own selfish desires.
It is a lesson most of "the who's" on Schmidly's list have not learned.
GROW UP INDIANA. BE TRULY RESPONSIBLE. THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX AND BEYOND THAT EASY DRINK.
VOTE NO.
because typing in all caps proves your point that much more.
Is THAT all you can come up with in this debate?
"VOTE YES Asheboro!" ring a bell?
And actually, the black and white of sworn discovery responses prove some of my points much better.
If the argument is that these people are so much smarter than the rest of us and they know what's best - why IS it that Asheboro is in such bad shape (which seems to be their argument)? Who got us there?
When you hand your hat with liars, do not be surprised when you get stains on your hat.
I hear all these people talking about how alcohol will bring all this crime to Asheboro. Crime is here already and getting worse by the day. Alcohol is not an illegal drug. Come on folks it is 2008 and there is so much potential for this city. I moved from a city almost 45 minutes from Atlanta and is thriving as we speak. Now that is not just because of alcohol but it will bring us more business and restaurant growth. The city that was 10 minutes down the road was was "dry" and within 3 months of the vote they are now on the top 10 fastest growing cities in country! Vote Yes!!!
Careful with the caps, Anon 3:45, you might offend Anon 10:50.
"Crime is already here and getting worse by the day". So adding easy access to alcohol (yes, yes I know "alcohol is already here") to the mix is going to help with that? And what about the neighborhoods already crumbling under the blight of the crime and vice that is "already here"? Booze on every street corner is going to make that better?
Asheboro is growing WITHOUT the booze. It's not astronomical growth, but it's growth. That's not something "the committee" wants you to know.
One more thought. I thought we wanted to retain our "small town" identity . . . is that also something that has fallen under the train of greed?
And OBTW, the "crime is already here" line is probably not the best argument to make to someone who is still trying to get some white-collar crime prosecuted.
Of course those white collars are on Schmidly's list . . . hospital officials (of all people) leading the charge for booze.
It's good for business. And what's good for business trumps everything else.
Ok, it looks like the two sides have their arguments. That's fine. Everyone will have their say when the voting happens. As someone who lives in Randleman I am perfectly happy with Asheboro residents making their trips to Randleman for beer (Circle Inn), wine (Food Lion) and spirits (ABC Store). But, I know from contacts in Asheboro the drive is more than a little out of the way for many.
The one thing that the vote for Asheboro will change is that those Asheboro residents that are DUI will have a shorter distance to drive when they run out...
If the voters decide to keep it the way it's been I don't think Randleman businesses will mind. I'll just keep my family off N. Fayetteville Street on Saturday nights. But, something tells me this vote is different and the outcome will be different than last time. From my perspective a "Vote for Asheboro" will improve my family's safety.
Rob, if memory serves (it will have to serve because the Asheboro city council is not providing written transcripts of the statements made at the public hearing), a police officer addressed the DUI (i.e. "a vote for alcohol is a vote for safety") issue.
He spoke of more DUI arrests in Asheboro (cited by proponents of easy access) being reflective not so much of "more drunks" on the road - but of law enforcement knowing where they would be (not necessarily on North Fayetteville street) and arresting them. They don't have to look in a lot of places to catch them. It's almost like laying a trap.
Since crime is on the upswing, I'm not particularly interested in giving law enforcement more to do - and lots more places to have to look/police.
Proponents of alcohol have counted their chickens before. I'll wait for the vote.
And we all shall live with it.
The crime is already here. Why don't you go to Walgreens at 3:00 in the Am and just take a look! I have spoken to quite a few people about this. If anyone out there actually thinks that alcohol is the the worst thing that could happen to this city you are BLIND!! There are people selling drugs and prostitutes walking down the street every single night. I suppose having alcohol in the city would make that worse! Are you serious, give me a break! We pay our police to enforce the law and trust me they should, my brother died in a drunk driving accident several years ago. That was caused by his own actions though this will pass as long as our police force is ready for it. You better believe they want it because of the revenue it would bring in for the county,.
Oh please. "The crime is already here". "The alcohol is already here". Is that ALL you can come up with? It's "already here", so let's make things easier for the drunks and give the police more to do?
And yes, I do think easier access to alcohol will make the things you mention worse.
Is it really your argument that "the revenue" cancels the true human cost? Because I've seen some of that - in the ER at 3AM (FYI, I'm a Prevo's girl).
I am sorry about your brother. I'm not sure if I had lost a family member to drunk-driving, I'd been so keen on allowing easier access to alcohol. But to each his own.
And, no. I don't thing alcohol is the worst thing that could happen to this town. I think that's already here too:(
Lots of people I know are talking about that.
We're not blind. Some are just waking up.
Again, I'm wondering why all these anons who are pro-alcohol are not signing their names.
Anonymous is absolutely correct. People that want to drink are already drinking. Just because people want to enjoy a drink or wine with dinner does not make them evil, does not make them alcoholics and probably puts them in a higher socio-economic class. They probably tend to spend more money in their community dining out and generating more tax revenue. Tourism will increase. I speak from experience from a long tourism career. The majority of travelers want to have the option of ordering beer, wine or drinks. I for one, would choose a city where we could enjoy a bottle of wine with dinner, plus the quality of restaurants and hotels goes up drastically when that is a choice. It all comes down to economics. Tax revenue increases, research the numbers if you don't believe, it is true!
As usual, there are always two sides to every coin. There are a lot of excellent points being made by those "FOR" and "AGAINST". Let me prefice what I am about to say by telling you I am not placing my vote "FOR" necessarily because of the "alcohol". That ship sailed for me quite a long time ago. For me, it simply represents an "economic opportunity" for Asheboro to progress/grow, hopefully in the right direction. I know it will be an enormous challenge, definitely not to be taken lightly, just like most difficult choices in life. In my humble opinion, I believe making the option of "alcohol" available, will likely give our city a much better chance of being economically
successful for the "overall" betterment of ALL who live here. Again, NOT because of "alcohol", but because of the opportunities that may come along by at least having it as an option. There will be good and bad to deal with, no matter how this decision turns out. Personally, I would love to see more people consider Asheboro as an up-and-coming place to live, a place they MORE look forward to visiting, a reputation we don't currently have. A lot of people think that folks in Asheboro do NOT embrace opportunities for progressive change and spends way to much time living in fear. There is a saying "If you're not growing, you're dying.". Could that be true about Asheboro? I have the utmost confidence in our community to pull together and make the most of the increased opportunities should it pass this time around. If it doesn't pass, the money trails that will likely continue to head out of town or pass us by altogether may possibly curtail or limit our city's successful economic endeavors. I don't and never have believed "alcohol" is the enemy. I believe PEOPLE who make poor decisions regarding there participation and/or careful consumption thereof is the REAL enemy. We all have to learn to control our habits, regardless of what they may be. I also believe freedom of choice is ultimately supreme. Thank you for providing this additional communication forum.
As a 25 year old who moved here two years ago, I can honestly say that I trully enjoy this city. The people here are great and I love my job. However, when Friday night hits, I leave this town. There is nothing for a law abiding citizen in their mid-20's to do. People in their mid-20's-mid-30's statistically have the most disposable income. The majority of my disposable income is spent in Greensboro or Winston-Salem, cities with a thriving night life that bring in revenue to their cities. When I want a drink during the week, I have to travel to Randleman. While I'm there, I also use the oppourtunity to pick up some groceries. That is even MORE of my income being spent outside of Asheboro. Furthermore, I don't believe that it is the domain of anyone to tell me that I cannot purchase a legal item. When I went into the grocery store here for the first time, after walking around in bewilderment for a few moments (this is the only place I've every lived that is dry) I was looked at like I was a sinner for wanting a beer. Drinking does not make you a sinner. In addition, I was under the impression, despite the Reagan administrations failed "War on Drugs" that the country had learned a very valuable lesson during the 20's. Prohibition simply does not work. If you need further evidence, study basic supply and demand in an entry level economics course. I urge everyone to vote YES on July 29, if not to help the city of Asheboro, then to help us exercise our God given and Constitutionally guaranteed right to make our own decisions.
Anonomous 3:56 PM _ I totally appreciate what you said in your last sentence -- "help us to exercise our God-given and Constitutionally-guaranteed right to make our own decisions". This is one MONUMENTAL reason I am voting "FOR". Here's the way I see it through sort of an analogy...Asheboro is the "car", and the "car" certainly can't roll-on without some "wheels", which unfortunately for Asheboro seems to be "alcohol". I say we put the "wheels" on the "car" and roll-with-it (not under the influence, of course) into what will hopefully be a more successful future for our currently "way behind the times" city.
My wife and I just moved into Asheboro for its proximity between our two jobs. The fact that it is a dry county only makes us cringe and had no bearing on why we moved here. Our only thought was that soon the people of this town would join the 21st century and vote for the freedom of choice. We are free to vote, free to choose our religion and free to eat and drink whatever we would like. As I have heard since we've moved here, we are in the "bible belt and Asheboro is the buckle". I don't wear bell bottoms any more and I think it is beyond time for the citizens of Asheboro to change their attire! Yes there are pros and cons to all arguements and this one is no different, but as with all the others, we agree to disagree. We don't tell anyone they can't vote, we don't tell anyone they can't believe in their god and we should not be telling anyone they can not buy or sell femented beverages. There is no silver bullet to economic success and community progress but there is certainly a huge hinderence out there and it is ignorance. Forward thinking and change is why we put certain individuals in office. I am tired of driving up to Greensboro and High Point for good restaurants and to buy beer, but I will continue to do so to avoid all of the insidious chain restaurants and the inability to enjoy a glass of wine with a good meal. Could you imagine an area of Italy that would not sell wine? A restaurant in Portugal that didn’t sell Port? A wedding in France with no Champagne? Forget progress, let us revel in history and tradition. Come on people, think of how pretty everyone will look in this town if we were allowed to have a drink or two. A vote YES is not a vote for alcohol, because we all know it’s out there if you want it. A vote YES is a vote for democracy, change, progress, choice and freedom!!
I've been busy for the last few days. I was telling the Medical Board about Bob Morrison. Have not had time to check in.
You know, I just find it fascinating that all of the "for alcohol" folks are commenting as anons or just initials - or as Smith/Jones.
My Mother had an "AGAINST" sign in her front yard - and it was stolen in the middle of the night by a courageous anon. If I had to bet (and, tongue firmly in cheek, I don't bet because it's a sin), I'd bet it was not stolen by someone who wanted to put the sign in their own yard. I'd bet it was taken by someone who did not want Mama to exercise her "God-given"/constitutional right to express her opinion (as a life-long resident of Asheboro).
The pro-alcohol crowd keeps saying that those of us who oppose alcohol are "afraid". Yet they won't sign their names . . . well, except Schmidly's thirty nine prominent "whos" (excuse me, forty-three - you've got to include the Four Horsemen on the Asheboro City Council).
I think it's really sweet that some people have come to this town and found everyone to be so wonderful. Didn't work out so well for me (even though I was raised here and came back to try and do some good). The "whos" like to talk about "facts". Well, it's a FACT that a number of the people on Schmidly's list know a lot about fear - they are mill town gods who bully/who threaten/who fire/who sue - and when that does not work, they lie.
They also run in packs.
If that's what it means/takes to be "up and coming", you can keep it.
What I am most afraid of is that people like that are charting the course for this town - a town that IS growing (despite all the fear-mongering about it dying a slow death).
We're not talking about "prohibition". We're talking about keeping something that has the potential to do great harm at arm's length.
There is a good argument to be made that by being dry and proud of it, Asheboro is both making a positive statement (i.e. that some things come before a quick buck) and AHEAD of the curve.
sorry for the typos, i was typing in a sober frenzy!
Is it just me or has anybody else about had enough of Dr. Johnson's comments, which to date account for nearly 41% of the comments? Who does that!?!? I'm just saying _ ENOUGH ALREADY!!! It's probably not going to sit well with her if I am annonomous, but let's see if others agree with me.
I have lived in Asheboro for 7 years. I moved here as a teen and so therefore was not concerned with alcohol. I am now married with 2 children. My husband and I are tired of driving elsewhere, profiting all these other places just to have a glass of wine with our dinner. My husband and I are both blue collar type of people, our families are as well. We are not on the whos whos and have only heard of a few people on that list. Why NOT make alcohol legal Dr. Johnson? Is it just from what you have seen in the duration of your career? What about the things that I see in my job? I deal directly with the visitors of Asheboro and it is sad to say that a lot of them tell me they won't return if the only thing we have to offer is the zoo.
What about the church goers that are voting no....what are they doing on Saturday nights? I know what a preacher in town is doing, he's going to a bar out of town, him and some of his congregation and they are drinking beer and spirits! But he is voting NO. This is what the YES voters are fighting against!
Something else...there is a store Junction 420, sells drug paraphenelia, bongs, bowls, all sorts of these things, now Dr. Johnson, why arent you fighting to have this store closed? You can go into any local store and buy Blunt Wraps, in assorted flavors, rolling papers, etc. So Dr. Johnson, you want Asheboro to become a better place, vote to remove these items from store shelves and close Junction 420, because this IS supporting illegal activities.
It is a FACT that DUI's are higher in dry counties than they are wet. I would rather read in the 'law log' that someone was arrested for being in public while intoxicated because they we walking home from the corner store than reading about a drunk driver killing a family on his way home from Randleman, Greensboro or High Point.
My husband and I may have 2-3 drinks per year but we are VOTING YES for alcohol. We want Asheoro to grow and prosper. We are tired of seeing tax hikes and extremely low unemployment rates. We want more for our community and want to be known for what we have to offer, NOT for what we don't have to offer.
BTW, I am proud not to be anonymous!
EVERYONE VOTE YES JULY 29 FOR ALCOHOL!
Well said, Bridget!!! If anyone out there hasn't read the articles covering the upcoming alcohol referendum in The Randolph Guide, I encourage you to do so. There have been (2) so far, for which I am aware. The article in last weeks edition was talking about the history of alcohol-related situations in Asheboro and this past issue (edition dated 7/2/4) is talking about the proponents side of things. Next week, the opponents will tout their viewpoints. They are covering it from all angles, it seems. Both sides, I'm sure, have excellent points. The question really boils down to which choice "realistically" makes the most sense overall _ the lesser of 2 evils, if you will. If voters will keep an open mind, making sure to weigh all the pros and cons, then perhaps the correct outcome will prevail.
Has anyone seen the hrrible crane on Dixie Dr beside the Christian bookstore that screams out "VOTE AGAINST"! Something that just occured to me, these no voters are getting scared...how many vote no signs, bumper stickers, etc. have you seen around Asheboro? Way too many! Us yes voters don't have to shout out to the community what needs to take place, we all know anyway. I just have a good feeling about it this time around...I may be wrong but hopefully we'll all see some change.
Bridget...after reading your comment, I just had to drive over to see that sign. WOW, you definitely can't miss it! I have to ponder as what the "For" seekers will do to counter that monstrosity. HMMMMMM?
I suppose the only better location for such a promotional sign would be down near the most popular attraction in town by far _ Wal-Mart! I'm thinking' the retaining wall in front of Chili's would be an EXCELLENT spot for a huge "FOR" banner. I mean, you have got to think Chili's is a proponent. Unfortunately, I know countless business owner's in town who are definitely and majorly "for", but they are simply afraid to promote their views for fear that current and potential customers who are "against" may actually boycott their business. If those individuals and business owners who are afraid could gather-up enough courage to come out and make a stand, there is no doubt Asheboro would take a huge leap into the future. Whether you are "for" or "against" the issue at hand, there are many, many other things you can do to help your cause other than just showing-up to cast your vote on voting day. C'mon, let's campaign _ it's the American way!
I have enjoyed the articles in the Guide (history has a lot to reveal/teach) and plan to comment on them in my own post at my own blog shortly.
Anon 8:11, I know the concept of blogging is relatively new to a lot of people in Randolph County (mostly because our local daily newspaper is such a sad/sorry joke), but I am a blogger. I've been doing it for over three years (two of it intensively on my own blog). And blogging is about going back and forth in a comment thread . . . about making points and counter-points.
I do wish that more of the "anti" folks I know who are following this thread would comment - but I understand why they do not. They are afraid of being baited and called names. It takes a while to develop the thick skin.
For my own part, I was called a "liar" in my hometown a while back (turns out I wasn't lying), and my hide is pretty thick.
I bet Rob is ready to pee in his pants with glee that so many people are regularly checking in on this thread. I linked it when it was posted, and am still popping in when I have the time, because I think it's important that Schmidly's bandwagon not roll over us all.
But I don't comment every day. You see, I don't work in Asheboro anymore (thanks to the under-handed and illegal shenangans of many of those prominent, all-knowing "who's" on Schmid's list), and this alcohol referendum is not the be-all-and-end-all of my life (as it seems to be with others).
Is it that I'm still commenting what's really bothering you - or is it actually the fact that I'm making points the "for-the-future" crowd does not want to contend with? Or is it perhaps that I'm not tucking tail and running (so not my style - as Schmid himself can tell you)?
Is it your position that "democracy" and "freedom" and constitutional guarantees are only for people who agree with you?
I've lived through a few of them now, and this alcohol referendum thing is ALWAYS lively . . . even entertaining. There have ALWAYS been signs in yards and along the highway - people expressing their opinions. It's America. Nobody I know is particularly scared - people will deal with whatever comes. But I do think the "anti" folks are actually more angry this time around - because of the pushy/"in-your-face"/"we're gonna do this no-matter-what" way things have been done this time (not to mention the oily the tactics of the people-who-fancy-themselves-important who are behind it).
Schmidly says it's all very "transparent". That's NOT the word I would use.
And Ray Criscoe makes me laugh when he talks about journalistic "credibility". If the Courier had ANY of that, Robert Morrison (a primary mouthpiece of this movement) would be out-of-a-job and/or in jail.
My Mother had her second "AGAINST" sign stolen from her front yard in less than a week. It's just stupid and infuriating that anyone would think it's cool or hip or okay to steal a sign out of a 72 year-old retired teacher's front yard. We're thinking about putting up cameras.
Hello, Bridget. Nice to meet you. I'm descended from "blue-collar" types too (and quite proud of it). Got treated like one myself by the mill-town kings who've run this town for decades (some would say, into the ground). And actually, YES, I think that the ugly, awful, heartbreaking, often UNNECESSARY things that I have seen in my job secondary to alcohol abuse (namely maimed and dead children) MORE than outweigh the fact that a grouchy tourist (or you and your husband for that matter) can't get a glass of wine with dinner out on one or two or three nights out of 365.
And I apologize if it comes off as harsh, but if you work in our tourism industry and you maintain (or can't/don't counter) that "the only thing we have to offer is the zoo", perhaps you/your superiors should be re-evaluating your job performance. Because that's simply not true.
I know many, many church-goers who oppose easy access to alcohol - and I can assure you that they observe very quiet Saturday nights (it's part of the charm of living in this small Southern town - at least it used to be). The "for-our-futurists" are over-playing the "hypocrite" card (especially where un-named preachers are concerned), and it is really pissing people off. But hey, keep playing it.
Even if I did work in Asheboro (and technically, like Schmid, I do not live in Asheboro either), it is not my job to shut down the local head-shop. That duty falls to law enforcement - and the city council (you know, the people that zone and pass ordinances). Perhaps you should chat up the "Four Horsemen" about going after that shop if you want it gone. You can probably count on a lawsuit if you do. God bless America.
One study out of Kentucky does not a "fact" make for those of us who live in Asheboro, North Carolina. And the DWI numbers (as pointed out in a LTE in the Courier today) can be manipulated in a variety of ways - to support one position or another. The cost of easy access to alcohol is not just about DWI's.
ALL of the "futurists" are emphasizing (1) convenience and (2) a fast economic buck (i.e. profits up front). NONE of them are addressing the true human cost of allowing easier access to alcohol in Asheboro.
It still amazes me that our local hospital CEO/VP/several hospital board members (and at least one MD) have come out of their well-heeled Country Club closets in support of alcohol. Whatever pumps up the business, I suppose. A quick buck trumps all.
Of course, with this crowd, it always has.
Okay, that's it for this round. Always a joy. Keep 'em coming. If you-all don't mind too much, I'll check in every few days.
Dr. Johnson,
I find it very interesting that you asked the readers in your last post the following question:
"Is it your position that "democracy" and "freedom" and constitutional guarantees are only for people who agree with you?"
Isn't that ironic! After all, within that "democracy", "freedom" and "constitution guarantee", shouldn't we all be able to exercise the right to purchase a "legal" substance at our descretion without having to spend valuable time and money driving to and fro and supporting other cities in which to do so. In my opinion "Freedom of Choice" lies at the crux of this
upcoming vote and we should fight for that above all.
Heck, I would just like to see a Cracker Barrel here in A'boro, which doesn't even serve alcohol _ a family restaurant. Apparently, Asheboro can't even draw one of those in because of our demographic shortcomings, which is related to our city not reasonably progressing at a level to encourage even that "family" restaurant. Having no alcohol is a major stumbling block for Asheboro to even get "family-oriented" businesses to locate here.
First of all, Dr. Johnson, is your hate directed towards this actual issue or is it more towards the people who are on the whos who list? I feel as if it is the latter! As you have said more than once, you dont live here, dont work here so why share your opinions here!
You tell me that I need to fight to have to head shop closed, once again because you dont live here, and there is a good chance I would be faced with a lawsuit...so sue me! It's illegal and I dont have enough of 'leg' to fight on my own. But we cant have alcohol, a perfectly legal substance because as someoen else said before, Asheboro is the buckle in the bible belt.
As far as this preacher comments goes and your commenting that us FOR voters are playing the hypocrite card, check out the facts before you assume anything. This preachers last name is Robbins. Enough said on the name. This is a fact, I was at a resturant/bar about 30 miles south of Asheboro and the preachr that married me, where my inlaws are members, was there drinking alcohol with part of his congregation.
As far as my job goes, I am very good at what I do and am just relaying the message. Too bad that our tourists cant vote an really let Asheboro know how they feel. And as far as the zoo being the only attraction...it is. The next biggest thing is Walmart, like someone said in a previous post. Now you can drive to Seagrove for pottery or go hiking or camping in the Uwharries and maybe to the aviation museum. Mmmm, all these can really keep someone busy...I think not!
And as far as your mothers sign being stolen out of her yard twice, I am sure it is nothing personal against your mother and I am almost positive the culprit doesnt know her age, since that is also a point in your post. But I tell you one thing, if I could get up there to take that AGAINST sign down off that crane and replace it FOR OUR FUTURE, then I wouldnt hesitate to do so!
Now on to someone more realistic....J. Webster...I would love to picket or whatever it took to get the word out and to let these against voters that we are not playing and we are serious and are not backing down to their tactics.
Why dont we have a cracker barrell or any good resturants here in Asheboro...we dont have the traffic! People dont want to come to Asheboro. How many times have you heard it called Trashboro? More than once I'm sure, which is what you think of it anyhow Dr. Johnson, at least thats the impression I get....
Gosh I need a good stiff one....(thought yuou might like that one Dr.)
One simple little sentence unfortunately describes a large part of the "Against" crowd, and not just realating to the alcohol issue...
Most of them do not embrace CHANGE, period!
They do not look at change as the glass being half-full, instead they fear change as the glass being half-empty. I have seen it for years here and the division amongst citizens in Asheboro on important issues is rediculous and rather embarrassing, far extending outside of Asheboro. The bad reputation that Asheboro has developed over the years regarding lack of progression is killing our competitiveness for key businesses to locate here, which is essential for a robust local economy. When people are struggling to survive (desparate, if you will) in our local economy, that is NOT promoting a "Safe and Healthy" Asheboro.
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You outsiders who have not lived here very long are not trying hard enough to get a drink. Just ask around and someone will direct you. There are lots of places in town to get a drink. Sure it's illegal but I've lived here over 50 years and these places have never been busted. I sure would hate to see these places go out of business by voting alcohol thru. Help a brother out and vote NO.
@ Dr. J: Actually, I have very good bladder function. :-)
Thanks for the link. It's helped but, so has an on topic post that shows up very well on Google ;-)
@ D. Gallimore: I would also welcome a Cracker Barrel in addition, Olive Garden, Red Lobster, California Pizza Kitchen, TGI Fridays and Outback. But, if my personal experience at Chili's is any indication, we might have a talent shortage to overcome.
@ Anon 1:02 & 1:03 PM a little off topic pointing the conversation to another site. So, it's been deleted. I you want to comment on the issue at hand, you are welcome to do so.
Rob,
I wasn't pointing the "conversation" to another sight, just getting your readers to participate in a poll "ON THIS TOPIC"!!! I don't understand why you would care about that anyway, but whatever.
As Schmidly's youngest daughter I have kept my opinions to myself about the upcomming vote for the sake of my family name. However, after reading a more that concerning blog post from Dr. J I feel as if I can no longer keep my opinions to myself. I can understand where one might be against the alcohol vote, and it is your legal right to do so. However, what I cannot understand is how a person could make light of a situation where a family almost died to further their opinions on the matter.
I can tell you from personal experiance that getting a phone call from my frantic brother telling me that the house was on fire was the scariest experiance of my life. Not only did I almost lose my entire family, but the place that I call home and the place that I retreat to when everything else in my life is a mess was almost desrtroyed. What happened that day had nothing to do with alcohol, copperheads, or underage drinking. My family returned home late from a baseball game that evening and grilled some hotdogs and hamburgers on the grill. An animal later knocked it over in the night and it caught the pine needles on fire. My brother and his best friend who is also like a brother to me were sleeping, as were my parents, and the copperhead that is being blammed for the alcohol induced fire. Let me get one thing straight, if it were not for that copperhead this blog might not even exsist because he is the one who noticed the fire and woke my family up from their sleep. Had it not been for his courage to walk all through the house, and even into the basement where the fire was located to wake up my brother and my parents, I might not have a home to go to or a family that means so much to me.
In saying that I encourage those of you who have somehting to say about my family or my step father to get your facts in order before you make light of situations that almost tore a family apart. Before you go throwing around language about how Steve Schmidly is doing no good in this community why dont you take a look at the countless number of teenagers whose lives have been changed for the better because of knowing him. Think about the students from Asheboro High School who have been given something productive to do with not only their time, but their lives through his mock trial program. Think about the fifteen or so National Championships that our high school has competed in thanks to his efforts and support of local teens. And I will remind you that he does all of this out of the goodness of his heart for no compensation. He does this only because he truely believes in the children of our community.
Oh and one last thing, maybe you should reconsider throwing out lies about holding his barstool at the local country club. Because let me make one thing clear for those of you who think you know what you are talking about, we have not been to a country club since I was about ten years old and I am now twenty three. Instead of spending his Sunday's gambling on the golf course, Steve spends his time coaching high school mock trial, coaching the baseball team, or supporting my college mock trial team in Louisville. Whatever it is that you think about Steve Schmidly on a personal level I can promise you is incorrect. He is the greatest person that I have ever known and without him I can promise you that my life would not be the way it is today.
So to wrap things up I would encourage those of you who are against the alcohol vote to speak your peace in a civilized manner without slandering the names of family men and their wives and children. Who are you to judge those who you do not know?
And on that note I would challenge anyone to combat my knowledge of my own family with information the think they have heard through the asheboro trash talking grapevine
Bravo "Schmidly's youngest daughter" you are exactly right. Steve has helped many of us over the years. Thanks to him I gained confidence in myself and respect for our court system.
As for you Dr. Johnson, I find it interesting that you talk about people name-calling but from what I can tell on this blog, you are the only one that has flung around insults. The sell of alcohol hasn't destroyed any other towns and it wouldn't destroy Asheboro either.
This isn't the only site discussing the alcohol vote and there are two questions I have been continuously asking the against side. As of yet I have not received an answer but perhaps someone here will be able to explain it to me.
Why do you want to allow the government so much control over your lives? I now live in a wet city, Asheville, and mind you I am still alive and well. I have had no run-ins with drunk drivers, which is more than I can say for my years in Asheboro.
Secondly, why should your views and opinions define how I should live my life? You see, allowing alcohol to be sold in Asheboro will not force anyone to drink, and if an individual doesn't want to utilize the services of a business that does sell alcohol, they don't have to. See, a vote for the sell of alcohol will further our rights and choices while a vote against it takes the control away from the individual and gives it to the government. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of large government to regulate many things. I agree with not allowing people to drive drunk and I agree that alcohol should not be sold to someone drunk, but I think I am responsible enough to decide whether or not to purchase alcohol. If you think otherwise, then you don't have to buy any alcohol, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have the option.
It has been brought to my attention that Steve Schmidly’s character has been called into question somewhat in this blog and no doubt outside of it. I’ve no particular desire to fan the flames of the alcohol argument, but I can say without hesitation that my experience with Mr. Schmidly has shown him to be a man of the utmost character and quality.
I had the good fortune to work with Steve Schmidly in the Asheboro High School Mock Trial Program, a program referenced in the post by schmidly’s daughter. I was struck by Mr. Schmidly’s willingness to put in long hours with the program in addition to the long hours demanded by his job and other volunteer opportunities (the Copperheads, for example, as stated above). Mind you, he assisted primarily with students who, prior to the program, were strangers to him but, afterwards, I can say with certainty, had no trouble calling him “mentor” and “friend.” I lacked the good sense at the time to fully recognize and appreciate this earnestness, but I have come to see the magnitude of it in hindsight.
It is with great pains that I resist the urge to detail countless examples of Steve’s dedication to helping cultivate talent, mental growth, and overall maturity of dozens of students, but I will summarize my feelings by stating that Mr. Schmidly has been one of, and in some instances THE, most critical factors in my development as a whole and interest in pursuing law as a career - a fact I am quite confident could be recounted dozens of times by others.
Allow me to further add that I find it very hard to believe that Steve Schmidly, a man who has made so much personal investment in the Asheboro community, oftentimes with virtually no tangible benefits (no monetary compensation or community-wide praise for the Mock Trial program has ever existed of which I am aware), is seeking to destroy it with this alcohol referendum.
Whether you support or oppose the alcohol referendum (and, by extension perhaps, him) is irrelevant. I merely want to point out that there ARE good people who support alcohol in the community just as there are good people on the other side. Please, let’s not lose all sense in this issue and treat it as the great “unveiler” of community evildoers.
I take pride in attaching my name as well,
Matthew Leach
Asheboro High School Class of 2005
Thanks so much for spekaing up about yur father! I personally do not know him but am so fa very satisfied in the things that I have heard about him and his accomplishments. I agree with the statements made about keeping this impersonal. As I said before in so many words, I feel that Dr.j just doenst want alcohol because she is pissed at so many of the people on the whos who list and is just as angry at the others who are, that she personally hasnt dealt with just because they are on the list. I think that it is great that these men and women have decided to come forward and fight for our rights as humans.
I agree with you too Melanie..why take our rights away completely, the no voters are not forced to go into these business and can only choose whether or not to buy alcohol.
And to Anon 3:26....I am not sure whehter to laugh or take offense to your post. Are you saying support the bootleggers and to hell with being legal??? Why would I or anyone else, regardless of how long they have lived in Asheboro want to risk going to jail just to 'support' bootleggers? Even if Asheboro votes no, I will still drive to Randleman or where ever to ge a drink. Hopefully alcohol will be voted in and bootleggers will be put out of business and have to work and pay taxes for their money earned like everyone else. So...help a 'sista' put and vote yes! lol.
First off I just want to comment on what anonymous said above Rob. That just makes no sense. I'm not gonna vote no just to keep bootleggers in business. Thats ridiculous. Besides, they charge too much anyways. When was the last time a bootlegger had a "sale"?? Secondly, typing in ALL CAPS doesn't make you sound mean or more like an authority figure. Lastly, Asheboro needs alcohol. This town is so far behind the times that it has reached the level of "pathetic". I've brought alot of friends home with me that I was in the Marines with and they never have much good to say about Asheboro. We need that, as a town. This is my home and I love it, but it's time for change! If I were Chili's and Rock Ola, I would be packing up my bags and moving on! That is sad. What kills me is that why is alcohol in Asheboro such a bad thing? Are we so blind that we don't think people will just go to Randleman to get it? I would rather have a drunk walk to the store half a mile away than drive to the store ten miles away! Seems like a no-brainer to me.
I understand Chili's Corporate is all excited about the upcoming election! Where you gonna go eat then Dr. J? Not Rock Ola or Sagebrush, as I hear they are equally excited.
As for the sign you love so much on 64, I am sure the "Against" folks would appreciate your gambling a little bit more. I hear the city is imposing a hefty fine since they were informed they were violating City Code. But hey, some laws can be broken, right? *wink...nod*
Oh, and I agree with you about your Mother's yard signs...has been happening to us Democrats here in Randolph County every election for more than thirty years now...only we gotta pay for ours!
It Irritates me to see the religious right who have grown up to believe that Alcohol is bad marching around with signs on their cars and in their yards to "VOTE NO" Yelling how evil alcohol is. Its not like there is no alcohol in the city. People are driving to Randelam and Siler city and then driving back. No we won't make a fortune out of alcohol and were not going to over night become the richest county in the state but we can finally get a share of all the business we are lousing to other city's and counties, and see the birth of a night time entertainment section in the city.
So the religious right need to get down off there pedistol and just let this vote happen and stop trying to sway the population in to seeing things done their way all the time
Would somebody please tell the church leaders in town that it is not necessarily a bad thing to have more people for which to share God's message _ as Asheboro will grow in population when new businesses and people move into Asheboro _ looking for a new church. Call me crazy, but I would think these churches would roll-out the red carpet for an opportunity to have more folks walk through their doors to possibly become members of their chuch. I mean, as newcomers come in and hopefully tithe, wouldn't it likely increase their ministry budgets, thereby increasing the spreading of God's Word? Do these churches only want the good people in their pews? Or do they welcome the sinners too _ as Jesus would? The attitude of the churches, their staff and their congregation in town simply beffuddle me. It would seem they are somewhat lacking if confidence and I certainly don't get it. They have a strong message, so why not share it with more people?
Actually Bridget, I've lived in the Asheboro area all my life. (Like Steve Schmidly) I just don't live within the city limits. As we've pointed out, my Mother does live within the city limits (in one of the houses where I grew up). Therefore I have an opinion, and I am going to express it. It's the American way, yes?
My neighborhood recently fought off annexation (the tactics used by the City of Asheboro demonstrate why state legislatures are considering a moratorium on the process statewide). The people behind that scheme (essentially several of the same ones behind this referendum - including the Four Horsemen) were certain that we on the Mountain were all big boozers, and once we were "in", would vote "YES". But that plan suddenly changed (and the move for a referendum got pushed front and center) when the Mountaineers fought of the money-grubbers at Asheboro city hall.
During that battle, a lot of people's eyes were opened about the way the people on Mr. Schmidly's list operate. And I can tell you, after the cluster-screw we endured, a lot of the Mountaineers would have voted NO on this referendum for spite. As it is now, we can't vote. We live here too, but we can't vote. That's fair.
Bridget, WHY pray tell, would I sue you over the operation of a head shop that I have no affiliation or association with (BTW, nice deflection from the issue at hand)? The owners might though. If you believe in something, you should go after it. I have. For going on ten years.
And Bridget, "the message" you convey is just the wrong message - about Asheboro - about the people who live and work here - about what we are about. If you think we can't cut it without alcohol, then I honestly don't know what to say to you.
Cracker Barrels do not serve alcohol, and are generally positioned along busy Interstates. Highway 64 is not a fit for them. Asheboro is probably a good candidate for one (on the 220 bypass/Interstate) down the road - but that's a company call.
It is always disheartening when one sees the flaws of their parents through other's eyes (I idolized my own Father - but I know full well he was a piece of work). And while I'd love for Mr. Schmidly (who I once considered "friend") to meet with me and look me in the eye and explain his actions, I'm not so keen on taking on his youngest daughter in a public forum. But here goes:
If one buys the arguments made here, poor picked-upon Steve Schmidly is such a victim - he is so invested in the community - he gives and gives and gives and gives - he just wants what's best for the community.
Well, good/fine. He's not the only one. I came home to Asheboro to practice Pediatrics - despite having been MAULED here surgically as a child. I dove in and invested myself into building something I could be proud of and doing the right thing by my patients. I cared. I took the 24/7 critical-care back-up call (for everybody in town). I cleaned up the messes. I fought the good fights for abused & neglected kids (often victimized by their liquored-up/drugged up parents). I lived and bled and fought to make things better for children here. Everything I had was poured into that practice. Everything.
Ultimately, I had to choose between my job and saving a baby's life (and tell me Bridget, if it had been YOUR child, what would you have had me do?). For that "sin" Bob Morrison & Steve Eblin . . . backed by several of the prominent "who's" on their BOD/Schmid's list . . . threw me out on the street and (later) called me a "liar".
My own dream shattered, I turned to Schmid/his law firm for help. FYI, I really don't want to hear about the Mock Trial Team. On mulitple occasions, as a REAL client to Schmid (who had REAL fiduciary obligations to me), I felt as if I came in second (or third or fourth) to his precious Mock Trial team.
Meanwhile, my family and friends suffered with me. It might not have been a house on fire (and there are several versions of that story floating around). But the damage was done.
I am a REAL victim - of some very bad/unethical/illegal behavior on the part of some of Steve Schmidly's new friends.
My situation was not a "mock" anything - it was the REAL thing. And Steve Schmidly BETRAYED me - both as a lawyer and a friend. He did not chase/find/present information he should have before pressuring me to take a settlement (just before a trial that might have blown the lid off the way our local hospital treats doctors and does "business"). And he flat-out lied to me in order to get me to accept a low-ball offer.
Just so we're clear, it was NOT about the money. It was about the dream that money might have helped me rebuild - a dream that never should have been shattered in the first place. It was about accountability and getting an apology from corrupt community leaders who behaved like common bullies. I have no illusions about Asheboro's small-town family values.
When I finally figured what had gone down - and how thoroughly I had been swindled and cheated, Steve ABANDONED me to his bad deal. For five years, I've begged the Randolph County DA to send this thing to the NCAG's office/SBI for an offical investigation of perjury/contempt/fraud (Randolph Hospital is a "non-profit" for God's sake). Garland Yates & Andy Gregson have stonewalled . . . and Steve Schmidly has been no help at all.
Schmidly's selfless dedication does not extend to me - to right a wrong that he crafted - because he wanted something over and done.
I realize it cannot be easy for "Schmidly's youngest" to hear, but your Father lied to me. He failed me. He betrayed me. I'm sorry. For me. And for you. And for him, actually.
So I'm sorry, "Schmidly's youngest daughter", but your Dad really let me down. Now he has ponied up to the very people who destroyed my life and my dreams (I realize not as important as yours/his/the Mock Trialer/future lawyers) . . . in order to change the very fabric of the town I grew up in and love dearly (despite everything).
Guilt by association hurts sometimes (ergo the Country Club references). I'm not a member - it was never my thing (another strike against me when it came to the people on this list).
I think increased access to alcohol in this town at this juncture is a BAD idea. It's not an opinion based on religion, but what I've seen as a doctor - both at home (MY HOME BRIDGET) and on the road. It's also based on what I've seen the people on this list do to their fellow/"lesser" townsfolk. If it means a fast buck, do you really think that they are going to do anything to protect the neighborhoods & residents that might suffer from the bars and convenience stores - the inevitable decline of the neighborhoods they don't live in?
Ironically, the gift I gave Steve after the settlment was a bottle of whiskey. What a schmuck I was!
So, Bridget. You're DAMNED RIGHT, I'm pissed off. And I'm not going to sit by and just let Steve Schmidly push this referendum through without a fight.
I'm leaving this thread. I have my own blog (FYI "Schmidly's youngest" I've been there for several years - tellling my story - where have you been?) . . . and I'm covering this subject (among others) there.
Enjoy talking amongst yourselves. The trouble with that is, you don't learn anything.
This hag isn't even worth our or anyone else in Asheboro's time. Any rational person can look at her writing for two seconds and see that she has a long-standing, fanatical obsession with Schmid. It's quite obvious that she is unbalanced; she is lonely and wants attention. Her rants have no credibility, so why even worry about them? We all know better.
Did Dr. Johnson really say she is leaving this thread? If so, perhaps that is a sign of good times ahead. Anyway, I'll take it!
Especially with commending Bridget for diverting from the topic at hand "(BTW, nice deflection from the issue at hand)? "
Mary, why is it that you can't voice an opinion without it crawling back to how you were victimized? We get it. We understand. You say that you've been done wrong. I'm here to apologize on behalf of everyone that you're tossing into this compartmentalized box of "people that have done wrong by Mary."
I do this in hopes that any responses that you have on any other board other than your own won't be filled with more whining.
Believe it or not, the alcohol vote isn't the time or place to jump out and try to take center stage.
Yes, yes... I'm sure the world is a stage. I'm positive that you'll allude to that comment with links back to your blog, but this is about an alcohol vote in Asheboro. If you're so bitter about Schmidly, and "his list", and anything else that we can attribute playground monikers to... then why are you here bringing more attention to them?
I've been reading this comment thread/blog since the first post and I am absolutely blown away by how much hate you spew towards these people that have opinions equally as viable as you.
If I have to read once more about a poor pitiful pediatrician, I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do. You have your own blog, you've made us all painfully aware of that fact. Why not keep your paranoid delusions, hate mongering, and sob stories there?
I agree with you Ben. It's just so funny, from the very beginning I had said that she has no business here, residency or not for the simple fact that it is a personal issue that she has with Schmidly and the others on the whos who list. I wonder if her attitude towards this vote would change if someone else was behind it. Also in her first paragraph, last post she mentioned that she could express her opinion because it was the American way....to hell with everyone else I guess, I assume from all of her comments she is the only one entitled to any American rights. Thank God she's gone!
BTW, the huge vote against sdign that is on dixie dr, there is now a duplicate on Fayetteville St, beside of Asheboro Transmission, but you can probably see it from a mile a way. Jacob's Cranes is the company supplying the cranes for these signs. Havent they though that business might decrease...but whatever they probably dont care.
I don’t normally get involved in the these types of verbal exchanges, but given the comment made on more than one occasion that “the thing that those in favor of legalized alcohol sales in Asheboro don’t want you to know is that Asheboro is growing even without it” I felt I must at least throw in a few facts. The NC Department of Commerce website clearly shows the Median Household Income for Randolph County in 2000 was $38,348.00. By 2005 it had dropped to $36,824.00. A $1,524.00 decline does indicate growth. In addition on the same site we see the percentage of the population in Randolph County living in poverty in 2000 was 9.1%. Again by 2005, it had increased to 14.6%. This also certainly does not indicate growth. While there are no numbers available for more current years, with the numerous plant closings and layoffs our community has suffered, we must assume these statistics have only deteriorated more. In addition, if one thinks our community is still growing they only need to talk with any of the many individuals that been affected by these events. There are numerous individuals that have either become unemployed or underemployed who previously were proud working people supporting their families and now have been relegated to participating in assistance programs and in some cases working two or even three menial jobs just to make ends meet. This referendum is not about alcohol. It’s about taking at least one positive step to provide additional opportunities to our citizens and to help move this community forward. Given the true facts regarding our local economy, I am appalled that anyone would make the statement that Asheboro is doing ok and still growing. Especially anyone in a leadership position that should be intelligent enough to know the facts. Some of the City Council members themselves have made this comment and I for one would like to know what facts they are looking at that would give them such an idea. Their world may be fine, but there are a great number of local citizens that aren’t doing so well. Open your eyes. One other question, Asheboro has been an allegedly dry town for about fifty years, what have we gained for it. In my world, if you try something for fifty years and it doesn’t work, you try something different. What about yours?
First of all, I'm glad that Dr. Demento is gone. She obviously needs to speak with Dr. Phil about letting go of all the inner anger she is feeling. That being said, Asheboro is long overdue for a change and now is the time to do it. I truly feel that those who are for the legalization of alcohol stand a great chance this time. The only obstacle will be the number of those who actually go out and vote. If we can get all of our friends and family between the ages of 18 - 40 to the polls, especially the people around the 18-25 age bracket, then we will see the great change which this town needs so badly.Unfortunately, many of these people will not vote because they think that thier vote doesn't matter. It does greatly if Asheboro is to have a future. I am nothing more than a common mill worker and I am thankful for my poition greatly. I know many people who don't have the luxury of saying that due to the closing of many of our businesses. I would say that Asheboro needs to stop turning money away and begin drawing it in. I proudly display the FOR sticker on the rear window of my truck and will proudly discuss this matter with everyone I come in contact with. Asheboro needs alcohol.
Iam very happy this issue is back up for a vote. I went by and got my for sticker and a sign for my front yard today. I would love to be able to buy my bottle of wine or my beer without going to Randleman. I just can't see that it will make things worse in Asheboro. We need something here in asheboro that might help us grow. Theresa Mitchell(lived in Asheboro since 1987)
I put up 7 "For" signs this evening for those neighbors that agree with me. In the process I drove by 1 "No" sign. Everyone has a right to vote their opinion.
In a recent article posted in the Courier Tribune as a defense against the alcohol referendum, "the City of Asheboro paid Brian Kelly of Lake Stone from Inglewood, Colo., to come to Asheboro and make his recommendation on how Asheboro could best survive the economic downturn that our economy has locally experienced. Mr. Kelly’s suggestion was that our main focus was to make our educational process and students’ test scores exceed the national average. He stated that a strong educational system is what draws corporations to even consider bringing their businesses to this area. "
I know Mr. Bush and his NCLB people, and the average concerned citizen believe that teachers can work miracles and have all children on grade level according to NCLB, but this is nearly impossible. Teachers are required to do more than ever before, they are working harder than ever, pulling extremely long hours, planning and attending workshops through the summer, and doing double duty during the school day often not taking time to use the restroom between the hours of 7:00 AM and 3:00 PM because they truly are trying to meet this unattainable goal. Believe it or not test scores are directly related to demographics. We have wonderful teachers in both the city and county schools. Unfortunately, teachers can only do so much. Asheboro/Randolph Co. is not making the gains according to NCLB like many other affluent areas.
There seems to be a correlation to the educational attainment of a child's parents along with child's exposure to culturally diverse experiences to the child's performance on standardized tests. Research shows that we have fewer people with higher degrees here in Asheboro. As for the educational attainment of a child’s parents. If an Asheboro citizen wants to obtain a degree beyond the hgh school level, they must go into another city to do this. Who would want to come back to Asheboro after going away to college in a larger city with more to see and do? Who would want to take their degree back to Asheboro to make much less than if they would take it to a larger city?
A large majority of Asheboro residents never get the rich cultural experiences that children from more affluent areas do. We also have very few culturally rich venues, and Myrtle Beach does not count. The Seagrove pottery district and the NC Zoo are educational and cultural, but when these are the only two places you ever go, the educational and cultural experience is lost. In addition, we (for the most part) are an extremely homogenous group of people. When you are constantly surrounded by people who are all the same, relatively speaking, we have very little to learn from one another. If alcohol was legalized in Asheboro, with it would bring a lot of new people with fresh ideas, different mind sets, different cultures, and different religions. Thus, we would become a more educated group of people who are more accepting of differences. We need a more diverse environment complete with different backgrounds, ideas, and ethnicities. I guess many of those who are voting NO are scared of these differences coming into Asheboro., but It is time to embrace change. It is time to say goodbye to blind acceptance to the norm (in Asheboro). It is time to break out of the twilight zone that we are living in. I say if you want to increase test scores-VOTE YES.
Teacher, you are spot-on with your EXCELLENT comments!
I had sort of an unusual experience today, one I wanted to share in this thread...I went to one of my favorite restaurants in Asheboro today, a restaurant that I frequently visit. A restaurant which would be "totally appropriate" for serving alcoholic beverages. Totally unaware to me, the owner's wife somehow noticed the "For" sticker on my vehicle as I was parking and also noticed the "For" t-shirt I was wearing when I walked inside. Shortly thereafter, she approached my friend and I at our table asking us if we would stop coming to their restaurant if for some reason they chose not to serve alcohol, IF it passes. I told her I would not stop coming and it would not change my opinion of the restaurant, but at the same time, "realistically" there may be times or situations that I would choose to eat elsewhere _ somewhere that, as an option, may serve alcohol _ like a sports bar. I told her it would likely affect their business at some point and it would likely be a reality she would no doubt have to consider.
The moral of the story here is that "appropriate" restaurants, for whatever reason that choose NOT to serve alcoholic beverages need to start preparing themselves for this very possible shift in dining preferences. I am of the opinion that the restaurants that offer the most variety, serving both non-alcoholic and alcoholic beverages where appropriate, will stand the best chance of surviving in what MAY soon become a much more competitive dining environment here in Asheboro. I hope these restaurant owners currently sitting on the fence about this issue will CAREFULLY weigh-out the pros and cons, making the best-informed decision in order to sustain their businesses. I would hate to see some of my favorite dinning spots close-up because of simple stubborness when I believe in my heart of hearts there can be a happy medium. Has anybody else out there had a similar experience so far?
The Safe and Healthy Committee will be marching on Sunday. We too should form some type of peaceful protest.
Anyone interested?
What a list......a bunch of lawyers, because the ONLY profit made from a DWI is that one of these lawyers is going to get a lot of MONEY.....there's your economic help! More money for them! Notice you don't see any Judges on that list.
Hospital administrators....yeah, I guess alcohol will drum up a lot of new business for the hospital! Whatever happened to the hyporcratic oath? Oh, that's right, only REAL DOCTORS have to take that...not hospital administrators. I guess they take the hypocrit's oath. I guess they'll be voting to legalize crack and meth, because they bring in a lot of business for the hosptial too! What a bunch of transparent hypocrits! And I notice that there were no REAL doctors on their list of losers. Yeah, any doctor found on that list would be looking at an empty waiting room. You see, even drunks don't want drunks operating on them. People are funny like that. :) They may want to be a drunk, but they don't want their doctor to be one.
Oh, and the newspaper guy, do I smell a story there? So much for impartial, unbiased news coverage, thanks for finally showing your true colors.
Well, this reminds me of when I was about 7 years old and my parent's tried to show me a big old copperhead in the blackberry briars. You know, they tried and tried to show me that snake and I never did see it. I guess if I'd waited long enough, it would have eventually moved, and I'd have seen it. But I've never been able to stand snakes! I just have this natural need to get as far away from them (and anything else slithery and slimy)as possible. Well I feel like I'm seven again, and only just realized that I'm living in a den of copperheads. They all just moved at once.....to sign their names to a list!!!! I really had no idea.....I thought the "hill" was the dangerous part of town, looks like I was wrong, it's the "mountain" and the "country club." It looks like these mill owners are the real criminals in this town. You see, right now I can go to town with my little kids and I don't have to worry about them seeing people getting drunk. I've been able to protect them from that evil so far.
One of hardest things about being a parent is explaining all the horrors and sickness of this world to the precious little life that God gave you to PROTECT. I'm trying to preserve their innocence as long as possible. Every time I have to explain stuff like this to one of my kids I feel sick and sad as I watch the filth of this world rub off on my little darlings. And no amount of washing will get the marks of sin off of them.
You ought to be able to go to the ZOO without having to worry about the presence of alcohol. I mean, who are these people that are so depraved, that they can not go a few hours without a drink, that they have to drink at the ZOO? I mean come on, after I turned 10 I never went to the Zoo again until I had kids. The Zoo is for kids...not alcoholics. This isn't about helping Asheboro grow. Which, by the way, what is wrong with Asheboro the way it is? If you have such a problem with it, MOVE! There are plenty of gin-soaked, sin-soaked cities in the world...find one! But these bums are willing to sacrifice the true "Future of Asheboro"...our children, for money in THEIR pockets. The average citizen of Asheboro will only see an INCREASE in their TAXES...to pay for more police officers and to increase the pay to the existing officers when their job becomes more dangerous. (And that is what my friend, a Greensboro City cop, told me.)
I notice there were no policemen on the list. No preachers. No firemen. No EMS responders. No 911 operators. No one who will be there, picking up the pieces of the citizens of this city if alcohol gets an even stronger hold. Just a bunch of AMBULANCE CHASERS......they don't call them AMBULANCE CHASERS for nothing!!!!
I think the only fitting ending to this whole shabang will be for one of these bums to die while drunk driving....But I pray to God, and I really do, that they don't kill someone else! Or maybe they can get killed by a drunk driver!!! I guess that would be, killing the proverbial two birds with one stone....! Until then....I'm still on the Lord's side. "Choose you this day whom you will serve.....but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15
Whose side are YOU on? And just as a side note....noone will be in there watching you vote, except for God. And yes, He really does care, and one day, in the not too distant future, you are going to stand there, eyeball to eyeball with a Holy God and give an account of EVERY THING you ever did.....including this! And shame on all of you who are saved and are spitting in the eye of the God who died to save your sin-loving soul from hell. And all for what? Another dollar in the bank account... Shame....if you don't feel it now...you will one day, when you're looking into the eyes of your Creator.
Unashamed of my Savior,
Stacey Hussey
Teacher.....I believe you present a very good argument for homeschooling! Yeah, alcohol helps every kid get a better education...and drinking doesn't kill brain cells!!!
I believe you partied a little TOO hard in college, dear!
If you are really a teacher.... of course teachers aren't what they used to be. People used to teach because they cared about kids. You know what they say, "Those who can't, teach." I never really agreed with that until now.
Why do you think no other casual dining corporate restaurants have built here in Asheboro..Alcohol thats why. If it passes within 6-8 months you will see Applebees, Outback, Fridays, etc. They are waiting on it to pass. There is so much great potential for this city if this passes. It's damn funny to me that the huge "Vote Against" banners were placed..great timing as it takes 30 days to remove one legally. Then you people that are against the selling of alcohol talk about doing the right thing. That is against the law last time I checked. Do all you want it will pass!
Well Stacey, I don’t know where you get your information or where you go that you feel you must protect your children from public drunkenness, but I would be very interested to learn. So if you have any places you can identify, do so or else stop your ravings. I frequently shop, dine and visit friends in Greensboro, Winston and High Point and have yet to encounter any public drunkenness or anything else that would have a detrimental effect on my family. We’ve also visited Disney World on several occasions and have not encountered any problems, even though alcohol is served inside of every one of their parks. Maybe it’s time you got out and seen the real world instead of listening to the ravings of others that may share you views. I have no problem with anyone having or sharing an opinion on this issue, but give me a break, at least do it with sane, factual statements. Also, I don’t know about your god, but mine would certainly never want me to wish any harm to anyone, much less that they die in a car accident, alcohol related or not. My god has also taught me it is not my place to judge my fellow man, that there will be a time and place that will be done by a higher power than I or anyone else on this earth. Obviously, we are not of the same or similar Christian faith.
Dear Annonymous 2:50 A.M.,
Are you "Annonymous", "Stacey Hussey" or both? Which is it? And what is a good Christian lady like yourself doing up so late anyway? HMMMMMMMMMMM?
You do realize, according to FACTUAL evidence, DWI's are higher per capita in Asheboro than "sin-soaked" Greensboro, right? Seems to me the lawyers are benefiting more as it is in Asheboro now _ DRY!
"The zoo is for kids." Are you kidding me? I love zoos and I am far from a kid. You haven't been to the zoo since you were 10!?!? I suppose you are finished learning about the wonderful animals God created. Why am I not surprised?
"What is wrong with Asheboro the way it is?" You must can't see the forest for the trees if you even have to ask that question. Wake up!!! Do you live under the proverbial rock?
And shame on you for your comment regarding a "fitting ending". You will have to answer for that one day, so I suggest you start asking for forgiveness now.
I think Annonymous 3:15 A.M. and Annoymous 2:50 A.M. are somehow connected and were up to no good late last night. They must be bar owners in G'boro trying to curtail Asheboro getting Alcohol. Don't think for a minute that isn't taking place during this pre-vote period!
Check this out. You can cast your vote, leave your comments, and see the commercials.
http://www.asheboroagainst.blogspot.com/
Dr. Mary Johnson,
Spend some of the money you earned working so hard in the ER and get some counseling, already! How many years have you been holding this grudge? It's not healthy.
I would rather have drunks roaming around town than some of the fanatics commenting.
I find it somewhat disturbing to see someone so afraid of alcohol. I am starting to think that they are worried about their own self-control.
Anonymous 3:15, your comment toward teacher is wonderful. Why don't you go ahead and homeschool your children in order to keep more potentially close minded people such as yourself away from the rest of the world. Better yet, maybe you need to try partying for once in your life. Wait, that would mean you would have to smile and enjoy yourself which it sounds like you don't do very often. I think that the teacher has some wonderful ideas. We need diversity here in this town instead of the same close minded groups which keep a tight leash on us all. We may just benefit from a little diversity.
VOTE FOR THE FUTURE OF ASHEBORO ON JULY 29th.
P.S. Has anyone noticed how personal this is getting? I truly wonder if it would be possible to have two opposing "peaceful" rallies in one day. It's worth a try.
Actually, I really am a teacher who truly cares about children.
You said that drinking kills brain cells. I did not, in any way, insinuate that children should drink alcohol. Yes, drinking does kill brain cells, but so does everything else. Do you take man-made medicines that "God" did not create himself? Wouldn't this be considered playing the hand of God?
About the "those who can’t.... teach" comment, what did that have to do with your argument against me? I do not see the correlation there. Please do clarify.
My feelings on this issue do not affect my teaching abilities. It's not like I would ever condone alcohol in the classroom, it is unethical and wrong, just as I would never push "God" on the children. It too is unethical and wrong.
But, one thing is for sure, I do genuinely care about children otherwise I would not be teaching. It is certainly not for the money.
To Teacher: As a fellow educator, I don't believe I could have made that arguement any stronger.
To whomever said "Those who can't, teach:" Step inside Asheboro High School for one week and tell me how you feel about that statement. Just try it.
To Stacey Hussey: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that your "savior" drank wine. In fact, I'm fairly certain that he turned a whole bunch of water into wine (according to that book many people in this town brandy about) that he gave to people. Are you calling Jesus a hypocrite?
Isaiah 65:8 says, "...new wine is found in the cluster"...that wine was not fermented. You can already buy His wine in the grocery store. Welch's makes the best....and they are Christians too!
Stacey Hussey
The rest of that passage says "and one saith, Destroy it not; for there a blessing is in it"
Are you saying that the Hebrews did not drink fermented wine? Ever heard of Manechevist (sp?)?
And if you knew anything about history, you would know that A) The book you are quoting from is BEFORE Jesus B) Most of the water was unsafe to drink then, so it HAD to be fermented C) Jesus was in Palestine, which at the time of his crucifiction, was a Roman province. The Romans drank wine fairly regularly.
I like how all you anon guys are so feisty....why not sign your name to your comments? Are you really just a bunch of teenagers trying to stir up trouble? I most definately made the comment to the "teacher" and I use that word purely for reference purposes. And the next time you start complaining about your paycheck, why don't you compare pay stubs with the factory workers in town, the one's who's jobs haven't been sent to China yet. Oh, and calling a snake, a snake, is not judging, it's just making an observation. Speaking of judging, you guys take the cake. If my newborn slept through the night, so would I! But that's just part of the job. If you guys want to drink, just say so. Just don't try to act like you're a great humanitarian, and that's why you want alcohol in Asheboro.
Oh, and as far as being open-minded.....the most open-minded thing in the world is a sewer. It let's in everything! So you just go ahead and help yourselves!
Still against Alcohol and other drugs....rape, murder...and all the other no-brainers.
Stacey Hussey
Stacy,
You mentioned open-minded above, relating it to a sewer, of all things. I thought I would remind you of an old saying..."The mind is like a parachute, it doesn't work unless it's open." Are you open-minded, Stacey? If you are, then please consider this important fact...It is not likely you will be deprived of anything if the "For" vote wins. But, on the other hand, if the "Against" vote wins, myself and others will be deprived of our right as adults to purchase and consume a "LEGAL" substance.
Now, call me crazy, but it seems to me a vote "For" helps EVERYBODY to at least be able to make their own decisions as an adult. How much is THAT freedom worth? We live in a free country, but we are not living in a free city. To me, that is bass ackwards!
To be able to exercise such freedom "conveniently" is worth much, much more than the alcohol! Unfortunately, it seems to be a package deal in this referendum.
I think Stacey could be the next Dr. Johnson. Or maybe she IS Dr. Johnson, in disguise. Anyone else suspicious?
Well as I stated before. All I want to do is to be able to purchase my wine, beer or whatever in the city that I live and pay taxes. It would also be nice if when I had the money for a good girls night out our special event I could do that in the city I live in instead of going out of town. I would love olive garden, red lobster, macaroni grill, I could go on and on that served both alcoholic and nonalcohilic beverages. In the many years that I have been to these resturants I have never seen people who are drinking to much (aka drunks), Just because you like to have a drink it does not make you a drunk. I don't think the city will come to a bad in just because we allow the sale of alcohol. I hope the vote passes but if it does not I will continue to do what I have for the past 20 years and spend most of my money out side of the city. Once again I want to remind you that I am a tax paying citzen of this city and I have the right to tell you how I feel and to live here even if I don't agree with all the citzens of this city.
Regarding Annonymous 3:15 A.M. and Annoymous 2:50 A.M being related.
They are not.
2:50 Comment
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WHY WHY WHY!!!!! (I am thrwing my hands up at this one!) Why does every single thing in this city have to be about RELIGION!!! Why cant this be simply about constitutional rights, freedom for everyone to make their own decisions???
Stacey, who said that you have to go into any establishment that serves, sells, advertises or promotes alcohol. Have you ever been to an Applebees, Darryls,etc??? If so it didnt bother you then! Did yor chidren go with you? If so then you are just another whiny hypocrite! You have the freedom to choose what restuarant you eat at, let me have the freedom to choose what I want to drink at those restaurants! You need to move to Coleridge where there is absolutely nothing and then you may be satisifed with that way of living.
What time is the Marc on Sunday? I have to work but if atall I will be standing out there with my vote yes sign! Where is it going to be at?
I believe that this debate has been the most exciting event here in Asheboro in years.
I WILL BE VOTING YES YES YES JULY 29TH!!!!!
You told me to compare my pay with that of the local factory worker. I have, and I am reminded of that comparison every week when my husband brings home his paycheck. He makes substantially more money than me and has much better benefits. As a matter of fact my entire extended family works in factories in various positions, and they all make more money than I. Furthermore, my brother in law is the manager at one of the fast food places in the area, and he even makes more money than I do.
If you look at a teacher's salary compared to the hours we work every day including the hours we stay late, and the hours we spend at home working at night and on the weekends, we make much less than the average factory worker. Oh, and just for the record, we DO have to take work home and stay late-it is not an option, and we DO NOT get overtime. We DO NOT get reimbursed either. Most of the summer is spent planning for the next year, going to workshops, and going in way before the teacher workdays even start in order to be prepared for the year.
Please do not tell me I am not dedicated to the children. They, and NOT the money, are the reason that I keep going back each and every day.
You cannot compare my job to that of a factory worker. Most teachers spend between 20,000 and 30,000 on their college education, unless they are fortunate enough to have wealthy parents who pay for it. We should be paid more for the years of hard work, and the money we invest. The average starting pay for someone with a bachelor’s degree is about 11,000 more than that of a teacher.
I have also worked in various factories through college, and I know what factory work is like. My work is nothing like this. I do not get smoke breaks, and lunch breaks. I do not get time in a half or double time for working over. I do not get a chance to use the restroom during the day, and for this I do not get increased production of a product, I get increased test scores.
The only reason I brought up the money in the first place was because you said that teacher used to care about kids. I was merely stating that it most definitely is about the children, because the money is not there.
My “FOR” mindset does not make me a bad teacher who does not care about the children.
The opposition will be marching on July the 27th at 3:00 p.m. starting at bicentinnial park.
I think that those who are voting FOR should march the same day, possibly the same time. Even better than that, maybe we should go out and show our support by lining the streets where they will be marching while proudly holding up our FOR signs.
By the way, Rob, it is really scary that you can pull up that much information from an entry on a blog.
"Teacher" ,
If you are so sure that you are in the right, then why do you still REFUSE to sign your name to your comments???? :) You just keep hiding behind your job title. Being a teacher does not make you a good person and mean that you are automatically right about everything (or anything, for that matter). Going to school to be a teacher just determines your job title. It does not "magically" impute you with good character or make you smarter than the rest of the world. It just means that you have completed the minimal coursework that the state deems necessary for you to be a teacher.
If you are so sure that you are right, again, I ask you, what is YOUR name. Every good TEACHER knows that you don't get any credit for a paper turned in without your NAME on it. Well??? Cat got your tounge? Or did the dog eat your homework? :)
Stacey Hussey
(Thanks for all the laughs)
After reading what you guys keep saying I believe we've got this alcohol thing pretty well whipped.
Stacey,
Maybe I am wrong, and please forgive me if I am. But, it seems to me the reason the teacher is not giving her name is precisely because of CRAZY nuts like you possibly coming after her. If you ARE actually Stacey Hussey, then you have certainly haven't done your reputation any favors.
Moving right along, are you prepared to eat some crow after July 29? If I were you, I wouldn't start celebrating (with your Welches) just yet. What I would do, however, is start praying that others who are "Against" don't become a nuisance like you seem to have become. Why don't you leave this thread, as Dr. Johnson finally did,and save yourself from further embarrassment.
Stacey,
Instead of just insulting everybody why don't you try to make a decent argument for the against side. So far I have heard religious arguments, "precious children" arguments, and arguments of fears. You feel strongly about your convictions and for that reason I am happy to know your opinion but if you really want to argue for your side, try to make a real argument. Find statistics that back you up. For instance I have looked at statics that show dry counties have more DUI's than wet counties.
Stacey,
As the husband of a teacher, I know exactly why the "teacher" here wont post her name. Teachers are held to a very high standard in this town which means, she simply can't write her name for fear of being ridiculed by the fanatical people in the community. At one point, I realy wanted to be a school teacher but having to abide by the rules placed before her doesn't appeal to me whatsoever. There is no way that I would ever conform my life to the community the way she has in order to accomodate the unappreciative people such as yourself. This is why she, or any other teacher who may read this board will not post their actual name. This is why I can't post my real name for fear of her job. I would say that this is why most of the anonymous people on here will not post their actual names. Apparently, you take a strong stand on things and are very proud but apparently, you have nothing to lose either or you would be anonymous as well. Trust me, if not for my wifes position, I would proudly display my name here.
If alcohol is going to bring in so much money to help our crappy parks, our horrible downtown, and bring in FINE dining... WHAT am I saying, get real, Asheboro looks great! Great parks, great downtown, and if you think Gordan Ramsey is going to open a London in Asheboro just because we vote in alcohol, get real! Any statistics I have seen just show that Asheboro Police is really good. Why vote against, simple, someone said it earlier and no I did not read every post so I apologize if this is repeating someone else, but simply market Asheboro as an alcohol free destination, FAMILY FUN, to have alcohol is like everyone else, so be different. I am sure their are other and more profitable ways for Asheboro to raise and have money for the City and its projects.
Has anyone noticed the vast number of FOR signs which have come up in the last couple of days. There are way more of them than AGAINST signs. I love it, I truly believe that we may actually get alcohol in this town this go round contrary to what the opposition think. Plus, if we don't, we can always keep feeding Randlemans economy like we have for 50 years....heck, it's only 10 minutes down the road.
Another thing that interests me, I wonder how much money the crane company who proudly displays the huge AGAINST signs have wasted throughout all of this. I mean the signs arent cheap, the fines they have recieved arent cheap and keeping a piece of machinery idle for this long isn't cheap. Now that's dedication to a lost cause.
Wait, since there were fines, that means that this is an unlawful act? Right? So, the opposition has stooped to unlawful acts to try to win a vote.Isn't that against the law as well?
Hey guys lets stop fighting and go to Randleman's fine dining restaurants and get wasted on fine wine and prime rib... Oh wait Randleman has no fine dining, Alcohol has done wonders for their great choices in restaurants, McDonalds, Taco Bell, Subway, Sapranos, Capri's,anyway let's go!!!
I just read anonymous 11:39. How ridiculous is this? I like family fun the same as the next guy but when the kids go to bed, I want a beer. You go ahead and market Asheboro as an alcohol free destination, other than what the zoo has brought in, there haven't been any tourists here since cars were invented. Lets face it, this town is not the excitement epicenter of the universe. People do not come here to spend money on Friday and Saturday nights because of our wonderful nightlife. The bottom line is, the Zoo is the only marketable attraction here, even our mall is miniscule compared to the malls in surrounding cities which residents of this town go to every weekend to spend MONEY. Money is something Asheboro needs to survive and it's something we don't have an abundance of. So, think it over and vote FOR and forget that silly idea of marketing Asheboro the same failing way it has been marketed for 50 years. We aren't Mayberry, we have way to many gangs and drug dealers for that.We arent the nice quiet town we were 30 years ago when I was growing up and neveer will be agin. Stop fighting the change that this town needs.
I am not sure, but I think Randleman can only sell beer and liquor at a store, not in eating establishments. This has been part of their economical downfall. Yes they have alcohol but they didn't vote on the whole list as we are. We will be in the same boat if only sales in stores is passed and the part regarding eating establishments is not passed. It all needs to pass to be effective.
I have been helping put-up signs for the "For" committee. I can tell you that emails requesting "For" signs have just been pouring in. And people frequently walk into the headquarters requesting the "For" signs. I hope that is a good sign (no pun intended) of support to finally get a "For" outcome this time around. I hope to be able to celebrate what should be a resurection of sorts for a city that has frustrated me for years. Perhaps by football season, or shortly into the season, I will be able to walk, bike or drive a relatively short distance to a quality, local sports-oriented dinning and entertainment establishment. Will some of yall join me to celebrate, even though at this point I am annonymous?
Chris do me a favor and look up how much economic growth the big whigs have stopped from coming into Asheboro because they don't want to lose the "Small town feel" If you think alcohol is the economic solution to Asheboro then you really don't have a grasp on reality. Will it generate money, yes, but if you look around their are better ways to boost your economy than by booze. Look at what kind of city ordinances are in place for a new business and all the hoops you have to jump through to get one off the ground; you want true economic growth, build peoples moral buy getting them jobs not making it easier for them getting drunk!
Why do you think jobs are leaving this area or refusing to even come to this area? Who wants to bring business to a town with nothing to offer?Wait....we have a zoo. The big whigs who are stopping our economical growth are the same ones opposed to the alcohol referendum because they don't want change in their quiet little town.
I have news for them and everyone else, this isn't a quiet little town. There are gangs and drugs here just like everywhere else. There are roads in this area where most people wouldn't be caught dead, or literally would be, after midnight. I can remember a few years ago, sitting on my front porch just off Elm Street and watching a man walking down the street get beat senseless for no reason other than he was walking through someones territory. My wife and I called 911 and decided to move shortly thereafter. As I said, this isn't a quiet and peaceful town so stop bragging about it being just like Mayberry because it's not. You mentioned in your statement that it "would " bring money into this town. Bring the money here then and quit sending the money to Randleman every Friday. Jobs will come and businesses will come and maybe, this town will join the 21st century.
If all the protesters want to do soemthing beneficial, other than rant on here or march down the city street during the day. Why not fight something illegal and march through some of the bad areas around town around 10 P.M. and voice your opinions regarding our quiet town there?
Annonymous 12:44,
I don't think "alcohol" is THE "economic solution" you mentioned. If you think that's what I may think regarding my "For" support, then you may not know enough about my feelings on the issue at hand. I am of the opinion the "alcohol" will just open-up a lot of economic options that, unfortunately and realistically, would not likely be available to Asheboro otherwise. In other words, "alcohol" seems to me to be sort of an "economic tool", if you will. Just as with any tool, it must be used correctly to produce the "desired", "favorable" results. The way I personally see it, it's not what "alcohol" can do for Asheboro, rather it's what Asheboro and its leaders can do with the availability of increased opportunities therein, that if handled properly, WILL improve prospects for Asheboro. If it passes this time around, the really important decisions will follow the election for many ars to come. That is when the real, meaningful work begins _ the preparation for achieving success with the new tool! If you look carefully at the "For" campaign signs, there is nothing about alcohol on them. It's not because the proponents are trying to disguise anything, it's because the intelligent decision-makers on the "For" committee know it's not necessarily a vote for "alcohol" and thoughtfully chose to market their message with that in mind. The majority of people I have met who are "For" the measure, are also NOT supporting the movement necessarily because of the "alcohol". By no means am I suggesting people run out and booze-it-up, abusing the added luxury, should it pass. Now, this can be debated from here on out, but the aforementioned reasons are MY conclusions. I have felt this way for decades, as many others who are also in-favor-of. There is a much bigger picture here than just the alcohol and I hope others will recognize that. The overall business climate in Ashebore is WAY different since the last referendum and I believe a lot of people, including those previously against, recognize a vote "For" may just be the best overall choice for the "potential" prosperity of Asheboro. I don't know what else I can add, so having tried to explain my position, I still respect how every one else feels, so let us all vote as we are convicted to do so.
You are absolutely correct, it will be a tool which we have to use appropriately to build this city to its true potential. I, believe it or not, am open to hear everyones opinion on the matter. The church I attend is completely against it as they feel they should be but I still have the FOR stickers on the rear window of my truck which I drove to church. No, it wasn't a statement, I merely drove to church but I did encounter some who sternly opposed my opinion. It's my opinion as they have theirs. I do appreciate the way you responded to this as I was expecting something more aggressive as it seems the posts here are becoming. You are correct, the city is much different now than it was in 1994 and I feel that we need this change to accomodate.
I would like to clarify why I related the issue to test scores and why I chose to tell that I am a teacher.
First, I only disclosed myself as "teacher" because Dr. Johnson was so offended that other community workers were FOR alcohol. It is odd that a teacher being FOR alcohol did not get a response from her. I guess those community workers she mentioned just had her upset because of her own personal vendetta.
Secondly, the only reason I related this to test scores was because of the newspaper article that had some guy from some other state who said that alcohol was not the answer to Asheboro's economic problems, and that raising test scores was. I was just showing ONE way in which test scores might improve through the financial growth, changing demographics, and added educational/cultural experiences that may very well be a result of legalizing alcohol sales.
Stacey Hussey,
Oh, and YES the "nuts" or fanatical people in this town ARE exactly the reason that I would not disclose my name, and the fact that I am a teacher is the only thing holding my back from posting my real name.
Why does your opinion of my correctness ride on the disclosure of my full name?
I think we are looking at various pros and cons of the issue. Some people are afraid of a potential increase in alcoholism and its attendant ills if alcohol is voted in. Others are talking about economic issues: giving Asheboro tools to help build its future in difficult times.
With regards to the fears, the question that keeps coming to my mind is this: Aside from data on DWIs which show more DWIs in dry counties, do we have any good data about the overall effect of dry laws on alcoholism in a community? Is it true that keeping businesses from selling alcohol here is all that's keeping some people from turning into alcoholics (or practicing the alcoholism they already suffer from)? We all know that many people are quite capable of drinking responsibly; it's really the excessive and irresponsible form of drinking that's a potential concern, right?
According to some of the comments here, alcohol is still being sold in Asheboro under the radar and as we know many people go out of town to purchase and consume (or bring back home with them). Still it's tempting to believe that overall drinking rates are lower in Asheboro because of the ban. Is that in fact a valid assumption? Has anyone actually done any studies on the drinking behavior of Asheboro residents and compared it to that of other towns?
Dr. Johnson said she has seen a lot of suffering in her medical practice at the hospital because of alcoholism and its effects on families. This would seem a relevant fact but it is incomplete. Do we have any actual data on patterns of medical care related to alcohol abuse in relation to alcohol laws? Specifically, does Asheboro currently enjoy very low rates of alcohol-related medical cases? Are there no (or fewer) alcoholics in Asheboro because of the laws? Rather than making assumptions, this is the kind of stuff that would help us weigh the options better.
Asheboro, unfortunately a.k.a. Asheboring, will hopefully in the not-so-distant furture, be able to make some strides towards losing that not-so-good nickname. Let's lose the Asheboring nickname! I encourage you to vote "FOR" on July 29th, so we can begin working together on a new and improved reputation _ a reputation for grabing the bull by the horns and making things happen, instead of watching other nearby cities continue to steel our thunder. It's Asheboro's turn to make some noise!!!
Alright...first off i not sure how I am going to vote. I like having a beer like the next man. But, really you ALL are beating around the topic. Chris S...seriously man you making all these reasons for "economic growth" lets face it..this is NOT about growth this is about alcohol. Period. The FOR signs dont mention alcohol..why? Because thats what we as a city is voting on. If it was truly about growth then we would be voting on how to spend taxpayers money a different way or what our city could do something different to bring in new jobs. Dont say its just for the city to grow its not. Again, i like having a few myself, but if i want it bad enough I will drive my happy butt to Randleman or elsewhere. Plus, the closest drinkers are not going to buy it in Asheboro anyway. This place is boring..agreed. But you were talking about gang violence and you moved? So, bringing in alcohol will help us have less violence? Negative. If you ever been to a bar you know alcohol only enhances stupidity. And yes we could bring in more money due to alcohol, but if the proper people are not in place to spend it wisely it still will not do Asheboro any good. Again, i really do not know which way i will vote, but I just wanted to say that we know what the vote is about so dp not make it into something complete different and it looks like you have a hidden agenda.
Actually no, there's no hidden adgenda here. There's simply the fact that so many people are willing to get out there and protest something which is legalin 50 states, if everyone would put this much energy into stopping the really bad things from happening to this city, it might just be a good place to live. On top of that, I rarely drink so getting alcohol means little or nothing to me. The economic value is exactly what I am looking at.
Annonymous 11:13 p.m.,
Below are some questions you might want to consider to help you decide which way to vote. If you answer yes to all or any of the following questions, then your vote should likely be "FOR". After all, you did say you like having a beer as much as the next man.
1. Wouldn't you rather spend LESS money and time getting your "few" and at least support the businesses in your own city?
3. Wouldn't you like for the "proper people" in your city to at least have an opportunity to put the additional money to good use in Asheboro?
4. Don't you think having more entertainment options in Asheboro down-the-road might just make it less boring?
Annonymous 11:13 p.m.,
Sorry about the numbering. I removed question number 2 and forgot to change the numbering sequence. My bad!
stupidity is prevalent in bars, but this ballot has nothing to do with bringing a bar into asheboro. Any restaurant that wants to serve alcohol, in relation to this particular vote, has to bring in the majority of its revenue through food. There aren't going to be bars on any corners in asheboro for that very reason. Just a simple FYI.
Well Matt, that's great, doesn't bother me at all. It sure will be nice to pick up a six pack at the old WAl- Mart though.And, it sure will be nice to order a beer with my steak at a local resturaunt instead of driving all the way to Greensboro.
Dr. Mary Johnson, I've been following your story for a long period of time. What concerns me about you in this issue (one note: I am neither pro or anti alcohol), is that you don't really seem to have any true issues with alcohol. Your problems seem to be with the people who want alcohol in the city.
My question is, if the people in question weren't involved in the "For" group, would you still be against bringing in alcohol? I would be curious to see that.
Based on your conspiracy theories about your own situation, I find it hard to read your comments as anything bordering on objective.
Karen...Dr. J doesn't have issues with alcohol...read her blog back far enough and you will see she likes to throw back a few with the best of them...she suddenly had a problem with it when all those in the "vast conspiracy" against her spoke out...you see, everyone...the President of the US, US Senators, State Senators, Congressmen, Congresswomen...every politician in the world...lawyers...DA's...every newspaper in the state...EVERYBODY is out to silence her...she is a pitiful woman who needs professional help...Dr. J objective? What a joke!
When the mayor of Hillbillyboro leaves a recorded message on my phone telling me to vote "NO", that's the last straw. As an elected official, keep your bassackward opinions to yourself.
Why can't all you thumpers keep your religion and government SEPERATE? Take a couple minutes out from your bible studies and read the CONSTITUTION.
Remember Sam Adams, one of our founding fathers...? Right, he brewed BEER.
Hey Dr. Mary Johnson, can you please step away from the keyboard for a couple minutes and PUT A CORK IN IT? Thank you.
Oh yeah, vote YES. The rest of them might wake up and find that it's the 21st century.
I heard a good one today. A guy I work with told me that there was a meeting which included 4000 townspeople who were there for thesimple fact of saying they would vote against. I told the guy ,good that means there are around 7000 people left to vote FOR. Next, where the heck did they meet, we don't have a church that big in this town. I call BS.
Anyway, don't forget to tell all the voters you know between the ages of 18 - 25 about this and make sure they vote. We are outnumbered by the blue hairs and the only thing that can help us is the younger generation. Vote FOR on the 29th.
To all you simple, one-track minded bible belt hypocrites, why don't you take your preaching down to crack hill in downtown Asheboro? Certainly you have heard of that? Oh but what a fine crime free city we have now, I have traveled all over the state of NC and when telling people where I was from ASHEBORO I got allot of replies to the effect of, oh yeah thats one of the biggest drug towns in the state! Yes you are all so right alcohol will just ruin our perfect crime free town won't it? If someone wants alcohol bad enough they will get it and guess what instead of just being able to buy this legal substance locally they have to drive many miles away to places like Randelman or Biscoe, wasting gas and contributing to global warming, but that's good right? Can you put your bibles down for a minute and look at the big picture? Money that could be fed into Asheboro's economy is instead going into the only nearby towns that had the sense to move into the 21st century, maybe you haven't heard prohibition IS OVER!
- VOTE YES! - for Asheboro's economy and future.
Well it seems that ths blog has finally gotten some sensible people posting! I am beginning to see more FOR signs than just a couple of weeks ago which gives me a lot more hope. The Randolph Guide posted a few days ago a timeline of previous votes and the actual number of votes for and against each time. If any of you saw this then you will know that we have been very close for 50 years or more. I think the closest Ashebro has ever been to getting alcohl has been like 200-300 votes or so. That's not many considering the number of people we have living in this community. As someone has said before, all the young voters needto get out and vote. Early voting is going on right now at the one stop locations until July 26. You dont have to wait until the 29th to vote, do it now.
Something to think about economically, if 1000 people per week (sounds like a lot I know) go to Randleman to buy their beer and groceries, they will spend right around $100 dollars. $100 times 1000 is $100,000 per week. This times four is nearly half a million dollars going to Randleman each week. Now back to my original statement of 1000 people. This really isn't an unheard of figure considering that more than 1000 people in this town drink alcohol and buy their groceries in Randleman while they are there. I don't think that this is an unheard of number at all, low if anything. That's a lot of money cahnging hands in another city when it should be changing hands right here.
Im sorry, I meant half a million dollars per month.
If you are looking for a monkey, you don't have to visit the zoo. Just look on Asheboro's back! Vote "FOR" and help Asheboro get the monkey off its back!
Okay, another comment on the giant sign on 64E that says "Vote No". It's illegal. They were told that it is an illegal sign because the right permits were not obtained, but they have 30 days to comply. Just long enough until after July 29. I find it ironic that these "holy-er than thou" fanatics would do something illegal to get their religious point across. And make no mistake, it is all about religion to them and how they look on Sunday. You want someone to say what they really mean, well here it is. I'm a married tax payer that would absolutely love to go the store and buy a beer if the notion hit me. I would treasure the tantilizing flavor until every drop of the frosty bottle was in my belly. And you know what, I might even have two if the race is on. What's next? You want to ban McDonalds because it makes you fat? Obesity kills more than alcohol, right Doc Mary?
just make sure that you're not only giving your opinion on this (or any other) forum. Sure, it's great that you can, but if you don't give your opinion on the ballot, it won't make much of a difference.
Early voting runs through this week and next week including next saturday from 9am-1pm. after that, you can't register/vote at the same time.. and can only vote at your polling place.
Some here have mentioned Asheboro’s gang problems. As long as alcohol sales are illegal here, only criminals profit from selling it. I wonder if gangs might participate in criminal activity? Legal alcohol sales take away one potential source of revenue for criminals and free up the police from having to enforce a needless law.
A supposed ‘fact’ raised in the recent mailer from ‘Safe & Healthy Asheboro’ claims that local alcohol sales will lead to increased crime rates. Not so in the experience of a number of cities like Asheboro. I found a recent article in the New York Times (at http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/12/business/12dry.html?_r=3&emc=eta1&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin which profiled the experiences of several southern towns which went from dry to wet. From the article (Duncanville is in Texas):
"Many officials in towns and counties that recently went wet say they have not seen an increase in reported crime or drunken driving.
"Mr. Cagle, the city manager in Duncanville, said the town had not devolved into “Drunkenville,” as church groups claimed it would.
Three police chiefs — David Walker of Fort Payne,... [Ala.].; Benny Womack of Albertville, Ala.; and Eddie Phillips of East Ridge, Tenn. — all say they have not seen any increase in law enforcement problems since alcohol sales began in 2004."
Related to my first point about the connection between illegal alcohol and bootlegging, if we legalize it then the bad guys are out of that line of business and we don’t have all the attendant vices which accompany their work. By the way, please copy and pass on that article or the quotes to those you know who may be voting on the referendum.
As for teen drinking, do we want ABC-licensed outlets which are monitored by the ALE and liable for underage drinking fines selling our alcohol, or do we want bootleggers selling out of their garage to whoever wants it? Teen drinking occurs because adults enable it and has nothing to do with where alcohol is sold. Let’s take one useless law off the table and enforce the ones that really matter, like those against providing alcohol to minors. Let’s vote for all the alcohol measures and bring Asheboro into the 20th century, which was when Prohibition was repealed.
I heard someone the other day talking about the sign on Dixie Dr. They said, "Mr. Newton is about to give us a lesson in civil disobedience."
Civil disobedience historically, with respect to the church, refers to civil magistrates or tyrannical governments imposing laws on christians that force them to violate clear teachings or rules of conduct found in their "holy scriptures."
This is not what Mr. Newton is doing. The City of Asheboro has imposed NO law on Mr. Newton which would require him to violate one single tenant of his faith.
By a majority vote the City Council has decided to allow the citizens of Asheboro to behave as Americans and exercise their rights in voting on this matter. I am disappointed that all council persons have not embraced the concept of freedom.
Several months ago, the Pastor of First Baptist Church, who, by the way is apparently wrestling with a food addition, spoke during the council meeting. This clergyman appealed to the council that they should "consult" with clergy before allowing the citizens of Asheboro to vote on matters such as this.
Ladies and gentlemen, what he is advocating is a theocracy; a form of government with the potential of becoming a christianized version of IRAN. Judging by the applause he received at the end of his comments, either most people visiting the meeting were not smart enough to understand what he was suggesting, or, due to their displeasure with the proposed Dave's Mountain annexation, would have applauded Pol Pot. There was a time in history when religion controlled government; it was affectionately referred to as the dark ages. There are many today that would like the church to rule over or at least have elected officials kiss the ring of clergy like the "good old days."
Mr. Jefferson, build up that wall.
With respect to Mr. Newton's sign, he is not a christian protesting tyrannical government, he's just a law breaker.
Alcohol can be incredibly destructive.
Each week in our local paper, letter after letter to the editor, proclaim the plethora of anecdotes’ that testify to the incredibly destructive potential of alcohol. One recently was from a woman who said that her father woke the family up in the middle of the night to drive 20 to 30 miles so that he could get his alcohol. You can find anecdotes about physical, sexual and or emotional abuse from almost any family. I concur. Alcohol has the potential to produce incredible suffering and destruction.
If the mere potential for destructive behavior is the instrumental cause for banning a product or material or, whatever; then I have some other suggestions for your consideration.
#1. Sugar: Some doctors have called it an “acceptable form of death’. It is the leading cause of obesity in this country. Obesity causes many diseases which impact life expectancy and quality of life. Sugar is rarely objectively examined and considered for its destructive potential which is why some doctors have referred to it as an acceptable form of death.
#2. Tobacco: It kills and maims more people in this country than alcohol and sugar combined. If I have to cite statistics on this one, you need to get out more.
#3 Car radio’s: My wife has been rear-ended twice; both times by people who were playing with the radio and not paying attention.
#4 Religion: Yep! You didn’t read that wrong. Religion has the potential to be the most destructive anthropomorphic institution wrought on mankind. Anthropologists have estimated that since recorded time, 1.2 billion people have been murdered in the name of religion. Even the Catholic Church conservatively estimate 10 million in the last 2000 years, estimates outside of the Catholic Church are up to 50 million in the name of inquisitions, crusades and witch-hunts. Protestants, before you think you fare better, think again. According to Gordon Conwell theological Seminary in 2006 there are no less than 38,000 denominations in the Christian faith; many hold conflicting views over doctrines that are considered to be necessary conditions for salvation. Books, such as “Holy Hatred” outline just the horrors of the 20th century. That does not include the subjugation and domination of women historically or the justification for slavery that was found using “sacred text.”
The purpose for my exposé above on religion is not intended to infer that good cannot be found in religion or that civilization should ban all religious practices. My specific point is that anecdotal examples of abuses are not sufficient to determine whether a thing should or should not be lawful.
If potential for destruction is the yardstick by which we measure whether something should or should not be tolerated, a brief history lesson concerning the church should cause you some pause.
I've seen several posts here, trying to "call out" the anonymous posters and asking why they won't sign their real names.
It's not teenagers and it's not trouble-makers, it's citizens of this town that are tired of the hypocritical judgement cast upon them by the so-called, "family-friendly, religous folk".
I just heard today about a business that allowed a FOR sign to be posted in its window. Some of its God-fearing patrons decided, when asking what would Jesus do, naturally concluded that he would boycott the establishment and do his best to take the dinner off of hard-working people's tables. God bless you caring folks.
I also heard, just today, of threats and profanities--yes, profanities--shouted at the workers of the FOR office downtown. I guess Jesus would do that too.
It's getting ugly now and people are showing their true colors. The fanatics in this town are showing just what loving Christians they really are...and what hypocrits they truly are. They're breaking city ordinances, driving people out of business and casting profanities and threats...but it's okay, they are the righteous and we are just the poor, misguided, lost souls.
I will tell you that, without a doubt, the "Christians" of this town are doing much more to drive people away from the church than to it. My family and I have been seeking a different church to go to. Now, I think we'll just pray at home, instead of standing in the pews next to these hypocritical, judgemental, hateful people.
Dr. Mary:
Look how ridiculous these two statements (of yours) are:
"Are you honestly thick enough to believe that adding alcohol to the mix of "drugs, meth labs and gangs" will be a good thing - and our local law enforcement will be able to control it? READ THE PAPER "MR. JONES". THEY CAN'T CONTROL IT NOW."
Compared to this one:
"...and could market [Asheboro being dry] in a "Mayberry"/family-friendly kind of way..."
So, are we a family-friendly, Mayberry or a uncontrollable drug and crime haven??
From your take on the latter, it would seem that the government of Asheboro has been much less vigilant about illegal narcotics and crime than it has about denying access to a fully-legal beverage.
Perhaps our priorities are askew?
Linguistical contortionism.
There appear to be a lot of people who have been taught, (usually by clergy who attended a bible school instead of a seminary, who’s primary objective it was to indoctrinate the future clergyman into their particular belief system,) that wine in the bible was unfermented and non-alcoholic. I have heard many of these arguments presented during my lifetime and the title of this piece should reveal my opinion concerning their viability. It’s hard to contend that God wishes everyone to be saved when such an important subject is so convoluted that Christian apologist must contort word meanings in order to make scripture say what they wish it said. I once heard it said that the job of a theologian was to explain why the bible did not actually mean what it said, and why it did not actually say what it means. This seems to be an accurate assessment with some of the against alcohol crowd.
The reason the New Testament was written in Greek instead of Hebrew, is due to the Hellenization of the Palestinian culture as a result of the conquest Alexander the Great in the 4th Century BCE. In other words, Palestine had been submerged in the Greek culture.
In the Greek culture, one of their gods, Dionysus was considered to be the son of god, and more particularly, the god of wine; or, to use the Greek word for wine, (Oinos.) after skimming through the 31 NT uses it seems to me that OINOS is hyponymous with "alcoholic beverage"; the vast majority of NT uses context demands fermentation/alcohol be present or the sense disintegrates, starting from Mat9:17 on...
So, the very same “scriptures” that says, “Be not drunk with (oinos) but be filled with the Spirit,) also says, “Deacons are not given too much (oinos,)” Gee, I wonder why deacons should not drink much,“Welches?” Maybe they would come down with the runs (diarrhea) and wouldn’t be able to attend the meetings.
This is also the same word that states, that Jesus turned water into, (oinos.)
If the consumption of wine, (oinos) is a sin; then Jesus providing it at the wedding feast of Cana would also be a sin. If Jesus is a sinner, he cannot atone for our sins; if he cannot atone for our sins then we worship and false Christ and preach a false gospel. (Reductio-ad-absurdum.) So, it seems that your presuppositional extra-biblical interpretation in the final analysis invalidate the New Testament.
Also, if you wish to do a brief reconnaissance of the history of the church you will find that most of the church fathers, including many who helped assemble the 27 books, ( you know the ones that are “insired”) of the New Testament, drank, including the father of the Protestant movement, Martin Luther. During the monastic movement it was the monks who kept and sold beer to provide income to keep the monasteries operating.
By the way, presuppositionalism in this context does not mean the overall system of apologetics used, it simply means that for many Christians they start with their own belief, and then go to scripture in an attempt to find some verse to validate whatever they believe. In this current alcohol debate it is important to realize that attempting to use logic and reason to deal with engrained beliefs is futile and a lot like trying to tell the Taliban that 72 virgins ain’t gonna happen.
I am so anxious to get this alcohol referendum behind us. Should the referendum pass (fingers crossed), perhaps myself, my friends and many other "responsible" Carolina Panther fans will have the opportunity to watch the Panthers play on a high-definition, big-screen tv at a "local" sports bar _ instead of spending our time and money to drive way out of town (which has been the norm over the years). THAT WOULD BE SO AWESOME, ESPECIALLY THE FINANCIAL SAVINGS PART WITH GAS BEING AROUND 4.00 PER GALLON!!! And it's not about the drinking either, so please don't even go there _ it's about the camaraderie amongst local sport's fans. I can't begin to tell you how many people from Asheboro I have ran into over the years at various sports bars in G'boro. That accounts for a lot of lost revenue for Asheboro, which is not only sad, but also TOTALLY rediculous.
I have a good friend from Liberty and we meet occasionally for dinner. We seldom go to Asheboro because he enjoys having a beer with his meal. Although we prefer the restaurants in Asheboro, we usually wind up in Siler City because at least you can buy a beer there. Wonder how many others are either going to Siler City, High Point, or Greensboro for the same reasons?
One other thing while I have the floor. Do the the local churches and church people accept tithes from people who work for restaurants & grocery stores that sell beer & wine in other cities & towns, or do they consider those tithes "dirty"?
I agree and disagree with many of the comments posted on this blog. First of all, I think we ALL need to stop being so mean-spirited with our comments. We all know already how we are going to vote. I seriously doubt my comments are going to sway voters one way or the other. I am certainly going to do nothing but anger people with more mean-spirited comments. I am going to leave my comments about the alcohol vote with hopes they will not be misconstrued as mean-spirited.
I am a Christian; however, I am definitely not one of those "simple-minded" nor "blue-haired" Christians as explained in a previous post. I am a young professional (28 years old) with a masters degree and two years of a Ph.D. under my belt. I hold an administrative position with a large city government in North Carolina.
I absolutely believe in searching out all information I can possibly search before coming to a conclusion on a topic. I do tend to look at issues through the lenses of Christianity because it is who I am. However, I routinely fall on sides of issues opposite of the majority.
I will be supporting the campaign against the sales of alcohol in Asheboro and I will explain my position. I have lived in (and around) Asheboro my whole life with a short stint outside the city for college. I do believe the consumption of alcohol is a sin; however, I'm not going to argue that position because of so many varying viewpoints on it and because it is really not the main position anyone on either side should be arguing.
I am certain Asheboro is a thriving city and has been growing rapidly during the past 20 years. I have witnessed the growth first-hand. I have seen businesses spring up, hotels come into town, restuarants building, department and retail stores coming to Asheboro. I remember when Highway 64 consisted of (coming in from the east) Eastside Baptist Church, Randolph Mall (remember when that opened as well), the old K-Mart (where Office Depot is), Food Lion (now Bottom Dollar), Mazda Building (which used to be Stuart-Bowman), nothing until you got to Walker-Strider, followed by the Badcock Furniture building (previously Winn-Dixie), followed by Golden Waffle and Kentucky Fried Chicken, Honda, Faith Book Nook, Hardees, Walker Shoes, Chamber of Commerce (Bamboo Garden used to be up beside that), Asheboro High School, and about half the fast food restaurants that are currently there. I also remember when downtown consisted of nothing but empty buldings. All of this has drastically changed. I would venture to say that Asheboro has increased by 75% in the past 20 years.
Now, that is probably not the growth many are speaking of; however, it is undeniable Asheboro has grown exponentially in the past 20 years.
I also hear a great deal of information regarding the loss of revenue to Randleman, Liberty, and Biscoe because those towns sell alcohol. If you have not yet had the chance, take a hard look around these towns. The argument has been that alcohol will bring better hotels and restaurants to Asheboro. What hotels and restaurants has it brought Randleman, Liberty, and Biscoe? Biscoe is the only town with a hotel out of that list. What restaurants can Randleman and Liberty offer that Asheboro cannot? Folks, I personally looked at these towns and came to this conclusion: these are dying towns. They are dying towns regardless of alcohol. To me, you may disagree and that is perfectly fine, these towns offer far less than Asheboro and look to be in worse condition than many towns in which I have been.
Recently, the town of Randleman increased taxes in addition to the mayor's and aldermen's salaries. I will not deny that alcohol may bring in additional money, I am not an economist, I really don't know. However, I do know our city leaders. Do you trust them with extra revenue? I fear any extra revenue that may come in will be used to "line pockets" of our city government.
Do I believe bars and clubs will pop up everywhere...no. It may happen later down the road but I don't expect to see this immediately. I have been in those clubs in my past and I have seen underage students in those clubs. I have seen the horrible activities going on in those clubs. Do I believe it will be prevalent? No. Do I believe it is possible for my child to get into one should it be around? Yes. I know Greensboro has them but that is a little more difficult to drive to. Do I believe a bar in Asheboro will result in rampant underage drinking? No. Frankly, we already have too much of that. Do I believe it is possible that it will be easier for one teenager to get alcohol because it is closer to home that couldn't before? Yes and that is one too many.
I told you before that I work in administration of a large city government. That city is Greensboro. Those who work in the city goverment of Greensboro will attest to this statement: crime is getting out-of-hand in Greensboro. Gang violence is at an all-time high and the police department is severely understaffed. Isn't a positive aspect of alcohol revenue that police departments can hire more officers? Aren't police departments supposed to gain more money? It hasn't happened in Greensboro. Police officers in Greensboro cannot make DWI and DUI arrests like they can in Asheboro because these officers are dealing with more immediately serious problems like murder, violence, and gang related activities. That is why you see more DWI and DUI arrests in Asheboro.
Guys, I am not looking for a back-woods, puritanical society in which to live. I like living in a town with little crime, good schools, and much lower taxes than you'd pay in other cities its size or larger.
I see the arguments getting more and more personal and heated on both sides of the issue and it doesn't have to be this way. I know you may have your mind made up as is mine and you nor I am going to change it. Hey! We live in America and I will defend the "for" side's right to have an opinion just as much as the "against" side's right. I just want everyone to realize that giving our city government this "license" is opening it up for a lot of tampering and dirty, underhanded scheming. The way this referendum is set up is leaving it wide-open for the government's interpretation of how things are operated and where money goes.
I hope I don't seem mean-spirited because I have not tried to be but I hope you all will think about these things before casting that vote. I just simply do not trust our city government enough to give them this license. These are reasons why I will be voting against the sale of alcohol in Asheboro.
Lee said: “Police officers in Greensboro cannot make DWI and DUI arrests like they can in Asheboro because these officers are dealing with more immediately serious problems like murder, violence, and gang related activities. That is why you see more DWI and DUI arrests in Asheboro.”
According the FBI, Asheboro, on a scale of 1-10 (their rating system, not mine) is currently rated #6 with respect to gang activities; this information is conveyed by local police officials who are involved in the investigation of gang related crimes. Asheboro, due to it’s central location in the state has been targeted by gang leaders on the east coast. There are two logical fallacies in your argument. The first is “affirming the consequent,” the other is called a “false assumption.” Asheboro is acually as high or higher with respect to gang activity percapita than Greensboro.
Although no statistical data exist to my knowledge to prove my assumption, reason would suggest that DWI and DUI incidences in Asheboro are higher than in Greensboro due to us demanding a large segment of our population to drive 30 miles for a drink with a meal.
Don’t forget, Greensboro also has five colleges; Asheboro has R.C.C. College towns and cities historically have had a higher incidence of alcohol abuses than non-college towns.
With respect to the civility of this debate, church leaders in Asheboro have engaged in hyperbole and fear mongering for many years to the point that a rational discussion, based on reason and statistical analysis is appearently impossible. What we are left with is the irrationality of dogmatism.
In the final analysis, the burden of proof in this debate should fall upon the shoulders of those people who seek to limit and restrict the freedom of other citizens. Before you force me to drive 30 miles to obtain a legal substance, it should be your obligation to prove that that substance would have a greater deleterious effect on this town than currently exist.
So far, all I have received is anectdotal hyperbole.
Thanks for the response Mr. Zorg. Let me clarify and then ask some questions of you. In no way am I saying Asheboro does not have its own problems with gangs. I would be naive in saying so. I also do not believe gangs are present in towns and cities simply because the selling of alcohol is allowed. I mean is that Greensboro police are severely understaffed and are forced to deal with these serious crimes much more than police in Asheboro. DWIs and DUIs are not so much on the radar for them as it would be for Asheboro police who do not have to deal with such greater crimes.
I am interested in reading the research you have cited in regard to the FBI report. Incidentally, when rating items utilizing a Likert-type scale (i.e., scale of 1-5 or 1-10) it is important to read whether the 1 or the 10 would be most positive or most negative. In addition, a rating of 6 on a Likert-type scale would not be considered nearly as serious, assuming the 10 is considered most serious. Please send me your research because I would love to read it.
Reason is not very reliable in these times. I have often seen reason manipulated to fit a viewpoint or thought. Of course I do not have the statistical data to back up my reasoning; however, I should search it out. It would seem the most logical argument would be the Asheboro police department is better equipped to handle DWI and DUI incidences.
You make a great point about Greensboro being a college town. Point well-taken but it is a sad state of affairs when college towns are more subject to alcohol abuse. It would be safe to reason that more young people are illegally involving themselves with alcohol because it is more readily available.
In regard to church leaders utilizing anecdotal hyperbole, it is something in which the majority of opponents and proponents are engaged. One thing about anectdotal hyperbole, I always say, the only "never" one can encounter is that there is "never an always." I am sure there are some church leaders involved in this activity but it is not all church leaders. There are some proponents of alcohol sales who are implying or outright saying alcohol sales is the economic panacea for Asheboro but it is not all proponents of alcohol sales. I would be rediculous for even suggesting such.
I agree with you in that we all need to present a rational argument free from anectdotal hyperbole. I appreciate the civil debate, Mr. Zorg. I like being challenged and I enjoy conversing about a topic without descending into name-calling. Thank you.
Lee Said: "Guys, I am not looking for a back-woods, puritanical society in which to live."
Lee, Puritans drank beer and ale. They had beer in their communities. Asheboro is striving to reach the lofty goal of "Puritanical" with respect to alcohol. This is what I have tried to convey earlier, historically the churches current position on alcohol is completely disconnected from pre 1700's reality. If your thesis is correct many of the greatest theologians and church fathers are doomed.
An addendum:
I unintentionally disregarded your last paragraph. I want to address this as well.
There is really nothing to prove. Why should opponents prove why Asheboro needs to stay "dry?" The implication of the referendum is to prove why alcohol should be sold in Asheboro. Asheboro is currently dry, it should be proven why that needs to change. I have not heard a logical, truthful, and statistically reasonable argument as to why alcohol needs to be sold in Asheboro.
In addition, I am not forcing you to drive 30 miles to have a drink with your meal. I prefer using Apple products as opposed to PC products. Unfortunately, Asheboro does not offer these products; therefore, I must drive to the wonderfully new Apple store in Greensboro. In the same reasoning you presented your last argument, this too is a legal substance I have to drive 30 miles to obtain. It is my choice to exclusively use Apple products, so I will drive to obtain them. Still using the same reasoning, I should present a referendum proposal for Asheboro to offer Apple products because I choose to use the products and I cannot obtain them here in Asheboro. A referendum proposal of this nature would be silly because why should you have to choose whether to vote on a topic like this? We make choices and sometimes we have to be inconvenienced to fulfill those choices.
Like I said before, I do not seek a puritanical society as has been suggested by previous posts. This was a prior argument by an individual.
Jean, the Puritans did many things that we should be ashamed of. Many Chrisitians have out-right slaughtered innocents in centuries past. But it is important that we not charaterize all Chrisitians as puritanical or evil, which you have not, don't get me wrong. I simply cannot help what my fellow Christians (past and present) do and have done. Thankfully, as a Chrisitian, I believe in the full pardon and grace of Jesus Christ. Believe me, I have not been perfect and I'll never be (please don't let my wife see this!)
Jean, I am very happy we have disconnected with pre-1700's reality and mentality.
Lee,
Asheboro Police officer Donnie Hill can provide you with statistics from the FBI on the war that is underway in Asheboro with respect to gangs and drugs. By the way, according Officer Hill the rating of 6 is very bad and very rare
With respect to alcohol being a panacea, I do believe it will offer additional opportunities for Asheboro. Will it be a cure all? No. With alcohol will come some things good, and some things bad.
As philosopher Garret Hardin once said, "you can never merely do one thing." Every decision that we make brings consequences, some good and some bad. But looking at similar cities and talking with their law enforcement officials I have come to the conclusion that "dry" cities experience just as many problems as "wet" cities. Therefore, is restricting law abiding Americans freedoms justified? That is an argument that has yet to be offered.
Jean,
I will offer this one last comment and really, I must get back to work!
I cannot argue that there could be some additional oportunities. The big question will be, will alcohol bring more positive or more negative to Asheboro? I will research the FBI statistics on my off time; however, with a Likert-type scale, I don't understand why a 6 would be considered very bad and very rare. If it was that bad, it should be a 9 or 10. It seems there is some misinformation coming out of the police department. For now, lets assume it is correct and the gang and drug problem is very bad. Do you think making alcohol more readily acceptable will alleviate the problem or compound it? I'll ask a better question; one that is not so extreme. Will alcohol help improve the situation with gangs and drugs. If so, how?
I agree. Dry cities do experience just as many problems as wet cities; however, one must weigh the extent of each problem. Asheboro could have 20 murders this year (God forbid) and Ramseur could have 20 parking violations. They would have the same amount of crime; however, which one weighs more heavily?
I absolutely do not want to restrict law abiding Americans' freedoms. Let me offer that argument. Why does my freedom to live in a city that is alcohol free have to be compromised? The act of voting in this referendum is a procedure set forth by our laws. The law is not being restricted. By the law, citizens of Asheboro have voted to not offer alcohol sales. Why can't Asheboro citizens who drink, get their alcohol from other towns and take it home while those who wish to keep it out are able to do so? Would it not be better to have as many people satisfied? Consumers of alcohol would still be able to drink while non-consumers would be able to keep the city like they want it?
Again, thank you for such a great debate and I really appreciate the intelligence with which you have presented your argument. I will respond in the very near future but I definitely want to do a little more research. Plus...I have to get back to work!
Have a great day, Jean!
BTW: My first and middle name is Nathan Lee and I go by either. Did not mean to confuse you or try to be esoteric.
Lee said: "Why does my freedom to live in a city that is alcohol free have to be compromised? The act of voting in this referendum is a procedure set forth by our laws. The law is not being restricted."
If Asheboro is such a wonderful environment why are you working in Greensboro? Could it be that you can make more money there? What about your principles? Don't you feel a tinge of hypocrisy asking me to drive 30 miles and yet the town that you love so dearly is insufficient for you to work in?
How is my having a beer with dinner infringing on your freedom? So you never eat at any restaurants that serves alcohol? When you vacation with the family, you only go to Lynchburg, VA? Myrtle Beach would violate your sensitivities?
It has taken 15 years for people of this community to muster the courage to risk reputation an property damage in proposing this vote and yet clergy in this town scolded elected officials for ALLOWING Asheboro citizens the right to choose; the right to exercise their constitutional freedoms. In 1994 people filled with the "love of Jesus" threatened the life of an Asheboro resident. The other day a lady stuck her head into the "For" headquarters and announced that, "she wished someone would blow this place up."
This is the sweet non-alcoholic Asheboro that you have come to love? What a wonderful place to raise children.
PS My middle name is baptiste emmanuel.
Nathan said: "There is really nothing to prove. Why should opponents prove why Asheboro needs to stay "dry?" The implication of the referendum is to prove why alcohol should be sold in Asheboro. Asheboro is currently dry, it should be proven why that needs to change."
This is was also the same argument used by slave owners prior to the civil war. They too used scripture to prove their position. They too cited words of Jesus and Paul. "What the word does not forbid should be lawful." was their mantra.
Do you think abolitionist were obligated to prove slavery wrong? Those who seek to restrict freedom are those obligated to to give just cause.
Jefferson, Adams and Payne would be spinning in their grave if they had heard Rogers speech to the City Officials a couple of month ago.
Lee, you say that you analyze issues in an educated manner before conclusion, but you've also admitted that you don't have facts and figures to back up your viewpoint. In a contradictory manner, you're clearly making unsupported assumptions. One example is assuming that the city of Asheboro is in a state of rapid economic growth.
You have to account for Asheboro's attrition rate, along with its physical growth for a more accurate picture of how successful and profitable that growth is for the city. A business simply being in-place doesn't mean that it's thriving or here to stay. If you take a drive around town 3 years from now, you'll probably see a lot of those same businesses replaced by new businesses.
And if we don't find some new industry to replace the closing factories, no one will be shopping at those stores or eating in the restaurants anyway.
Many have used Chili's as an example of how Asheboro can attract major chains without alcohol. They're complete fools if they think for a second that the development board of Chili's--a chain made famous by their menu of flavored Margaritas--didn't have some idea of an upcoming referendum before investing millions in putting one here.
It should also be pointed out that the current businesses in Asheboro do not translate to a windfall of tax revenue for the city. To date, Asheboro still derives more than 60% of its budgetary revenue from RESIDENTIAL taxes. Its current primary strategy for revenue growth (without alcohol) is to annex more residences. It has seemed far more aggressive about this strategy than attracting more businesses to our city...until now.
Asheboro is certainly growing, but not in a good or economically-successful way. It's experiencing an influx of new residents every day, many of whom are uneducated. The hispanic community alone has grown 1000% in the past 10 years. Among them, only 1 out of 4 over the age of 30 have a high school education.
That's clearly growth, but it's not GOOD growth. Believe me, the city of Asheboro will be needing a lot more tax dollars very soon to feed its police force, in order to address what's coming down the pike, not from alcohol sales, but its rapidly-changing demographic of poor and uneducated residents.
But it seems no one cares about that. They either look the other way or they're just ignorant of the true profile of their own city. The most ignorant statement I hear from people is "We want Asheboro to stay just the way it is." The poor souls have no clue how much their city is changing everyday. They simply don't see the train coming.
The current administration has been asleep at the wheel when it comes to economic development of this city. It's about time that the council woke up, showed some guts and went against the grain for the sake of steering this city away from its current trajectory.
If we leave the image of this city up to the zealots (including our mayor), Asheboro will become known as a little roadstop town, full of greasy spoon buffets, staffed with minimum-wage workers who live in crime-riddled neighborhoods. You won't be able to buy a bottle of a legal beverage, but you will be able to get a cheap meal, grab a quick hooker and pick up a bag of weed for the rest of the trip (as you easily can right now).
Alcohol isn't THE solution, but it's a step toward positive revenue generation. It's a way of leveling the playing field with other communities in the area and viably competing for economic growth and attracting a more educated, higher-income demographic.
If you talk to people around town--someone other than a fellow church-goer--it's overwhelmingly clear that the majority are in favor of this referendum. If it doesn't pass, it will ONLY be due to the apathy of the majority, not the sentiment.
Many of these folks are particpating in the early voting, due to anonymity. They know the circus is coming and the marches will be commencing very soon. Marches of a couple hundred people might look impressive, as they do in a cramped city council meeting, but they DO NOT represent the sentiments of over 11,000 people in this community, many of which are sick and tired of the judgments of their so-called, "fellow Christians".
If you're truly an analytical thinker and since you have such impressive educational credentials, please--PUTTING RELIGION ASIDE--state your other reasons for not supporting sale of alcohol in Asheboro. And please offer something TANGIBLE to support it.
Nathan said: "There is really nothing to prove. Why should opponents prove why Asheboro needs to stay "dry?" The implication of the referendum is to prove why alcohol should be sold in Asheboro. Asheboro is currently dry, it should be proven why that needs to change."
Lee said: "Why does my freedom to live in a city that is alcohol free have to be compromised? "
How about the fact that the MAJORITY wish it so? How else do we deterine the sentiments of a majority? That is how we do things in a democracy, we ALLOW PEOPLE TO VOTE and the MAJORITY RULES, not a loud minority who wishes to keep their rules in place for eternity.
It's ridiculous to think, while surrounded by a free country where this beverage is legal and readily-available, that people will forever accept this ordinance and not have their voices heard, especially after such a length of time when this city's demographic has changed dramatically.
Pass or not pass, the idea that the residents of Asheboro should NOT be afforded the right to vote--to have their voices heard, so that you can create whatever environment you wish--is an abomination of our American way of life. The people vote, the people rule; Live with it or find yourself a more comfy, communist government.
Oh, but choose carefully, because THEY will decide FOR YOU what YOUR new religion will be.
OK, let me address Jean first. I work in Greensboro because the position I hold in administration is not offered in Randolph County. It is not a city position, it is a county position. In addition, it has nothing to do with population nor funding. Actually, what I am paid is based on a state scale. Should the position be offered in Randolph County, the pay would be the same.
No, I feel no hypocrisy because work is required for me to live. Driving 30 miles for a drink with a meal is not necessary for life. I have to work and I choose not to drink.
You having a beer with your meal absolutely does not infringe on my freedom but the fact of me not having a choice of going to a restaurant that does not serve it, does infringe on my freedom. I know, I know...I don't have to go to the restaurant in the first place. Why then would my freedom be limited in that way?
I eat in restaurants that serve alcohol only when I have to because unfortunately I do not have the freedom of choice sometimes. Lynchburg? I try to stay away from the place. Too many Falwells...just kidding.
Let me ask you this. If the selling of alcohol passes, will you support my cause to propose a referendum to have it removed? Do you think the elected officials would give me that option to later on give the people the right to choose again? It would only be fair because proponents of alcohol have had more than one vote throughout the years.
Once again, I condemn the actions of a few who choose to react in such negative and abhorrent ways. In return, do you condemn the name-calling by those who are for alcohol who call people "zealots" and "simple-minded" and "blue-hair" and "puritans" just because they voice their opinion against a matter? Asheboro is a much better place to raise children than many cities in which I have traveled.
Jean, first off, I do not see the connection between slavery and alcohol sales. Slavery was an atrocious act and should not be compared with slavery. Second, in that argument you quoted from me, where did I use scripture? I have purposefully worked to keep scripture out of the argument because unfortunately, people do not want to listen to that. Again, I am not seeking to restrict freedom. We all are going to get the opportunity to vote on the issue AGAIN, correct?
Judgment: The growth I explained in a previous post was not businesses being replaced by other businesses. It was trees being replaced by businesses. Have you been an Asheboro resident very long? So Chili's having an idea of an impending referendum means there was some back-room scheming by our elected officials? How come no one else knew about an impending referendum when Chili's found out? The annexation of the Dave's Mountain area was simply a ploy by the city council to get more votes for the "For" side. I sincerely do not trust our city government.
I don't know...I think the Hispanic influx could be good for our community. They are hard-working people who are very family oriented. Don't you have family that do not have the best education who you think are very smart, wise people? I am a proponent for education but I have seen many people become successful without it as well. So it is the poor and uneducated who are the criminals? Alcohol will attract the more educated, higher-income people; the type that aren't criminals? That is a powerful commodity indeed!
Oh, believe me, I am most upset not with the proponents of alcohol but the fellow church-goers.
Judgeth, go back up to my 11:43 posting. I have not made any argument against the sales of alcohol using religion. I want someone to show me the positive economic impact alcohol has had on Randleman and Liberty. It is pretty tangible the condition of those towns compared to Asheboro.
Oh and by the way: I do know about picking up a quick meal but I don't know about picking up the quick hooker and bag of weed.
Judgeth,
I want you to vote! But support the cause should they choose to propose a referendum to have alcohol removed.
I think that this whole thing is so funny. It doesn't matter what issue is brought up, the conversation turns to another issue. For instance, this is a blog regarding the alcohol referendum but some people are talking about Hispanics. Ever seen a sign on the side of a building which read MS13? That's what several of Hispanic members of Asheboros population is up to and if you're uninformed, it's the Mexican mofia.
Next, the religeous issue. I know plenty of good christian people who go to church, pay tithes and drink their fair share of beer. For that matter, I know good christian people who do much worse. The truth is, they will still be going to Randleman or Greensboro to buy beer because they will still be afraid to be seen in public by their fellow parishoners. God turned plenty of water into wine, he was on to something I would say.
Now, as far as Randleman and Libertys growth due to alcohol sales, can you go into a resturaunt in Randleman or Liberty and have a beer with your meal, no. They screwed up and didn't vote in liquor by the drink so all they have to offer is gas stations which sell beer, plus the fact that their population and zoning area wouldn't permit growth. Asheboro is very different, we have the land and population to accomodate growth.....if we pass all four referendums. Without all four being voted in, we will be in the same boat except for the fact that we can get beer at the grocery store instead of driving ten minutes.
I am not sure if alcohol will pass this time, hopefully so. If it doesn't, the vote will come again and eventually it will pass. I don't mind driving ten minutes to get my beer which I will gladly drink regardless of what the people of this town think about it. If it does pass, I will gladly vote again just for the purpose of watching all of the opponents cry again. Once it does get voted in, it will not be voted out because of the revenue it will bring to this town.
And another thing, everyone is talking about not voting our mayor in for another term because of his strong stand on the issue. For one, is it doesn't pass then he will have enough people who love him to get him back in. If it does pass, who cares about him, it will be too late for him to do anything about it then. Plus, the guys got to be getting close to retirement age. Vote in one of the alcohol supporters when he does.
I'll be glad when this is over, friends and families are turning against each other. Churches are boycotting local businesses and threatening to blow up the FOR headquarters. Not very Christian if you ask me. I just want to go back to church and take my daughter. I haven't been since this started due to my opposing views and catching criticism for them. Also, not very Christian huh?
Lee,
If you don't realize that prostitution and drugs are accessible in Asheboro, I would have to question how "exposed" you are to the realities of our fair city. Do you venture north of 64 past midnight on a weekend night? If not, give it a whirl. Drive up and down the backstreets a little and see how your education grows. Or simply ask our law enforcemnt officers. Most that I've met are pretty frank about their experiences here.
People need to stop using Randleman as an example of alcohol having no impact. Randleman does not serve it by the drink and that makes all the difference in the world. We're not talking about the guy that goes out once a week to an ABC store and stocks his fridge. He's not the guy that's going to sit and pay 3 bucks for a beer at a restaurant. We're talking about SERVING alcohol. The difference in economic impact is night and day. Should Asheboro only pass ABC stores and not the rest, I see a few tax bucks, but very little impact in long-term economic growth from that. They may as well not pass any of it, if that's the case.
I think it's pretty harsh of you to accuse our local government (as many of your "against" cohorts have) of "backroom politics" and "scheming". If there's any example of that, it's certainly on the side of those who can't seem to separate their religous beliefs from their civic duties. It's been widely known for a long time that several members of the city council have been proponents of alcohol. Have you ever had a conversation with any of them? If so, they would have happily told you where they stood and their desire for a referendum. I'm sure that not just Chili's, but ANY large corporation moving into the area would be aware of the local politics and place their bets on where things are headed. I think that's what Chili's did. I may be wrong, but it only makes sense to me. Corporations of that size simply don't dive wihout checking the water first. There's no need to wave your accusatory finger at our local government; it's common knowledge that this referendum was coming. If you didn't know that, you certainly shouldn't be questioning how long I'VE been a resident?
On the links between low income, poor education and crime. Are you really questioning that crime is more prevalent among uneducated, poorer neighborhoods? Do your research on that one. There are plenty of sources available. It'll take you all of 3 minutes or so.
You (like many pro-illegal immigration folks) make a pretty broad statement that ALL hispanic people are hard-working good-hearted folks. Would you say that about ALL Whites, Blacks, Asians, regardless of their socio-economic standing? Of course not. It's not about being hispanic; it's about being over the age of 30, living in the U.S. in 2008 without a high school education and where that leads not all, but most people of ANY race or ethnic background: either to a very low-paying job or crime. Again, if you dispute that statement, do your research.
And yes, if alcohol passes, in fairness, I would happily join you in calling for another referendum...in the same amount of time as we've waited for this one: 14 years.
Although, if the voting margin trend over the past 30 years is any indication (roughly 20% in 77 vs. 7% in 94), you'll be hard-pressed to find many troops to rally your cause. Alcohol is coming to Asheboro. If not this refendum, then the next. And when it gets here, barring another federal prohibition, it won't be leaving.
P.S. Are you the Nathan "Street" whose letter to the editor was published today (Mon 7/21)? If so, I'd like to comment on your letter as well.
Can you imagine how diffcult it may be to get people in Asheboro to come together and make the appropriate decisions IF THE REFERENDUM DOES PASS? Based on past experiences I have witnessed, I shutter to think!!! I assure you of one certainty, the real difficult, daunting task lies ahead should the referendum pass, so all of us should begin to prepare ourselves for that possible outcome. On the other hand, let's see if all whom are "against" will show-up, as they have during the campaigning, and do a remarkable job of promoting Asheboro as a "DRY" city, as many "against" have suggested. Can the city of Asheboro have noteworthy progression being "DRY"? I hope people will be up for that challenge. It is certainly going to be interesting to follow the developements over the foreseeable future. Whatever happens, I just hope Asheboro doesn't keep chasing its tail, which apparently is a reputation Asheboro has developed over the years. What or whom will serve as the necessary tourniquet?
I have become very interested in the alcohol referendum lately, despite the fact that I myself am not quite old enough to vote in it, though if I could, I would most certainly vote for. I can see no logic in the against argument, they claim that bringing alcohol to this town would bring crime, even though one of them has broken the law in hanging oppressive banners over 64 and Fayetteville street.
Also, the street i live on has many vote for signs that have been stolen, kicked down, and vandalized, hmmm, I didnt know vandalism was a "family-friendly" activity, well I guess I was wrong.
Why should residents of this town travel elsewhere to purchase alcohol? This is merely cutting down the revenue coming into this town. Not to mention, people who travel to other towns to purchase alcohol are likely to drink some on their way back to Asheboro. If it was sold here and purchased here, they might be more likely to wait until they got home to drink.
Alcohol has the potential to bring much growth and revenue to this town, better restaurants, perhaps larger hotels.
Prohibition ended, its a shock, I know, but its time let go of ignorance and give Asheboro a bright future.
Vote For before or on the 29th
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen...first of all let me point out that I live IN the limits of the city of Asheboro and I am growing tired of seeing people who dont even live here talk about this because to put it plain and simple...you have no say in this fight.
Now as for my point of view...I am FOR and I can see no point in being Against because their desire for a "safe and healthy Asheboro" is easily shattered by the sale of cigarettes, fatty foods, knives, guns, etc. So heres my thought...if we really want it to be so safe and healthy then why not ban the sale AND not to mention the possesion of all these things?
one of my biggest problems with the Against is their fanatacism and zealotry, spread through vandalism and exploiting of the loopholes in the law. These "family friendly" activities do not really seem to be in line with a safe asheboro now do they?
As for the Health of this city...tobacco products kill roughly 400,000 people a year in this country...that is more than alchohol, suicide, murder, and illegal drugs combined. Surely you dont expect me to believe that no one in the Against side smokes, do you? I have personally seen what cigarettes can do to a person...I have worked as a cashier and I had many unfortunate run-ins with a certain woman that was so hopelessly hooked that most of her teeth were gone and the ones she did have were pitch black, her lungs were in such bad condition that she could not even walk more than a few steps and the worst part was that every time i ever checked her out she always put food back so she could afford more "smokes." I say out law tobacco if anything at all, but no we wont and sad to say many of the against will more than likely smoke up before they head off to vote. Sad huh?
I would like to remark on the signs, vote for and against. The for signs say vote for the future of asheboro, so does that mean the against signs mean vote against the future of asheboro????? though they may not say it, that is surely what they mean and what they will do...
Good googly moogly. Some of you uptight Bible-thumpers could sure use a drink.
Lee,
Slavery was supported by much of the church, ( Quakers excluded) due to the very same type of dogmatism that exist today in the fundamentalist south. It is this type of dogmatism that cannot be rationally debated; it is the same as dogmatism in any religion whether that be Islam, Judism or Christianity. It seems to be especially dangerous in the three Abrahamic monotheistic religions who seem hellbent on destroying one another. I digress, If I go strictly by the words of Jesus and the apostle Paul you cannot make a case that slavery is wrong. Jesus admonished slaves to obey their masters so that ultimately he would receive glory. Paul, advised slave owners not to beat their slaves to the point where they would put out an eye or break their teeth. It is why someone like Bob Jones Senior (Founder of the “Bible Believing, Bible Preaching” Fundamentalist school, Bob Jones University) was a member of the Ku Klux Kan and why he would publish a booklet (which I still have that I bought in their book store back in 1971) entitled: “Does Inspiration Demand Segregation?” It is easy to understand why christians of that era would draw the conclusions that they did. Would anyone deny that ethically the world has moved beyond the ethics of the teaching of scripture in this regard?
In your earlier post you stated that you believe that the consumption of alcohol is a sin and, that you were not willing to debate the matter because of the various interpretations.
Lee there aren’t but two. You just don’t like the other option and like many christians I have met in my life, you hold onto your dogmatism and are unwilling to examine the credibility of the other position.
During much of the history of the church, alcohol has been used by church leaders. Its demonization came about as a result of a particular group of christians who were followers and progeny of the Remonstrance. That group eventually gave rise to some very charismatic and also very uneducated evangelist. Generation after generation have passed their dogmatic conclusions on to the point where they ignore the majority of church theologians today and in history. Religious dogmatism is a powerful force. Why is it that 99% of all people who hold to a religious view hold to the view of the culture and family that they were raised in. It is the same in all religions whether they be animist, polytheist, Hindu, Islamic, Judism, Christianity or John Frum. ( John Frum is a pacific island cult that arose During WWII. A US serviceman was stationed on an island ( Tanna Vanuatu) in the pacific. He was the first person from the outside that they had been exposed to. He talked into a box and later strange and noisy birds flew overhead and dropped food and clothing. Today the islanders are awaiting the return of John Frum. Apocalyptic prophecies have even arisen; “when John Frum returns every valley shall be filled and every mountain shall be laid flat.”Any attempt to convince the islanders that John was not a god has been fruitless)
Much of the mindset and zeitgeist associated with alcohol today is a result of the culture that we were raised in, the views of our parents, the denomination we have been exposed to for much of our lives and personal experiences and fears.
You seem perfectly content to have half of the population of a town be inconvenienced even though you have stated that you occassionally eat in restaurants that serve alcohol, work in a city that supports it because of the money and have admitted that my having a beer during my meal does not infringe on your rights. You are an enigma.
Until the powers that be in Asheboro realize the importance of keeping and bringing in younger people to the city, Asheboro will remain stagnant. YOUTH BREEDS FRESH IDEAS AND PROGRESS!!!
With all due respect to the older generation, the youth is the future of ANY city. Unfortunately, the youth aren't likely to remain in or want to come to Asheboro until more entertainment and quality-of-life options are addressed and created, which also and unfortunately will require having alcohol as an option here. It's just the way it is these days _ a harsh reality people must come to understand.
Asheboro, please stop running the youth out of this city!!!
Once again, I want to make sure that my comments have been made without reference to religion. In my opinion, it is easy to make the argument against alcohol using religion. I prefer to make the argument without it first.
Again, I must reiterate that there is zero evidence of an economic boom directly related to alcohol sales. There are no hotels in Randleman, Liberty, or Boscoe. Taxes are far lower in Asheboro than those of Greensboro. It should be the opposite! Greensboro offers so much liquor that there should be so much money flowing, taxes should be very low. Why aren't they?
The problem with promoting the city as a "dry" city is that those whose job it is to promote our city in that fashion are supporters of the referendum and refuse to promote the city in that fashion.
I want to see one example of how the against side has acted with backroom politics and scheming. Oh, I knew it was coming eventually but the date had already been set before the council meeting. That is a small example of backroom scheming.
Of course I would not say ALL white, blacks, and asians are good hard-working, family oriented people. Look back at previous posts. We talked about hyperbole and this is an example. You can never say ALL people are one way or the other. That would be rediculous. It would be like me saying ALL proponents of the referendum are drunks. I know better than that because I have friends who are for this vote who I think are great individuals and will remain friends with them. Typically, Hispanics have shown themselves to be hard-working, family-oriented people. Also, a referendum can be proposed every two years. I don't really know why proponents have waited so long to propose another referendum. Sure there is crime in communities with families of lower socio-economic status. It should be noted, the more heinous and expensive crimes over the past 5 to 10 years have ocurred as white-collar crimes. I do know who MS13 is and I know who the Bloods and Crips are as well. Hispanics, like other ethnicities, are not alone in forming gangs. By the way, I am in favor of restricting illegal immigration.
Once again, I condemn anyone vandalizing property and stealing signs. Whether you realize it or not, it is happening on both sides and I think it is childish all the way around. I also want to point out that I have yet to call anyone names who advocate for alcohol sales. On the other hand, I have seen "zealots," "fanatics," "Bible-thumpers," "simple-minded," "bluehairs," and "puritans" and that came in one day of posting. Where is the outrage over the name-calling? Why is it that we always descend into name-calling?
Listen, I really don't care if they propose a referendum to ban tobacco, fast food, etc. I don't participate in those activities either. I know the detriment those activities can cause.
I, too, will be glad when it is over because I am seeing more and more people demonstrating lack of respect for each other and their opinions and beliefs. I may not agree with you all but I certainly respect your opinion and believe you have a right to voice it.
Let me address this popular mindset of slamming Christians. I am sure there are people who claim to be Christians who act inappropriately and who are outright nasty. Again my opinion, those individuals are not really Christian at all. There are characteristics associated with being a Christian and those are not any of them. Please remember that.
Lee sounds like a model citizen. Somebody, give this man the pat on the back he's so desperately seeking.
Lee..and I quote you here..."Again, I must reiterate that there is zero evidence of an economic boom directly related to alcohol sales. There are no hotels in Randleman, Liberty, or Boscoe."
First of all, and you seem to keep missing this point...RANDLEMAN DOES NOT HAVE LIQUOR BY THE DRINK...that is exactly why they do not have the restaurants or hotels...they understand their mistake and will be voting to correct it in a year...
The Randleman ABC store ALONE pumped $318,042 in revenue into local government in 2007, and $1.4 million over the last five years.
Revenue from ONE Randleman ABC store accounts for 5 percent of the Randleman city budget.
Statewide in 2006, ABC stores returned more than $37 million in tax revenue to their communities.
If you don't want alcohol, fine, go cast your vote. It's the democratic foundation of this country, but don't make statements about the economics that are simply false.
Jean,
Thank you for the compliment whether you meant it that way or not. I am an enigma because like I said before, I do not fall on the side of every issue you would suspect me to. I will admit I am socially conservative but liberal in all other senses of the word. Anonymous 9:45 AM, I aand my wife are young people (28 and 26 respectively), educated, and hold good jobs. We love Asheboro and plan to stay here! Quality of life in Asheboro is good and you can't find quality of life in a bottle.
Let me clarify. I said I eat in restaurants that serve alcohol when I am forced to do so. Unfortunately, there are towns and cities to which I must travel that do not offer the luxury of choice. In addition, I consciously stay away from fast food due to its unhealthy nature. Again, I am paid on a state salary scale and would make the same in any county. I do not work in Greensboro because of more pay, I do because the position is not offered elsewhere close. Plus, I don't live in Greensboro because the taxes are extremely high compared to Asheboro. You having that beer absolutely does not infringe on my rights but me not having a choice as to which restaurant to go to or grocery store in which to shop because they sell the beverage is an infringement on my rights.
Jean, I am purposefully leaving religion out of my arguments but I will digress for this. I am a Christian who came from a home where my mother was a Christian and my father was not. I choose to be Christian because I believe it is the correct path. All religion must have some form of dogmatism to simply exist. You have me pegged wrongly. I am really not dogmatic. Actually I am very tolerant. I believe the consumption of alcohol is a sin but I will not condemn you for believing it to be otherwise; however, as a Christian, we are commissioned to preach to the world and lovingly and caringly attempt to convert. Anyone involved in any religion will be dogmatic in some form. We believe our dogma is correct and true. Atheists even have a dogma. They are dogmatic that there is no God.
I have examined the credibility of other positions. I own a copy of the Qu'ran and have read it frequently. Does that make me a Muslim? No. I've read literature from other religions and do it frequently. I choose to know the other positions but I choose to continually return to my faith. I happen to remain in the faith my mother taught me, not because I haven't read and studied other faiths and positions because I have, but because I feel it is the way in which I want to live my life and raise my children.
I have examined the crdibility of the other side. In Hebrew, the word "yayin" refers to wine as the fermented wine. But hold on! There is another term in the English called strong drink. Here's an argument I found recently that I have used in the past. It is a very scholarly argument. It is lengthy and I apologize for that but please read it.
It's true that we often find people drinking alcohol in the Bible and that Scripture speaks of alcoholic beverages, but we need to be careful not to read too much into a superficial look at such texts. When our English Old Testaments refer to alcohol, they generally use the words wine or strong drink. So any examination of the Old Testament's attitude toward alcohol must take into account the different Hebrew words translated into these two English terms.
The term strong drink presents no major translation problems because only one Hebrew word, shekar, lies behind it. But even so, the translation strong drink is more general than it ought to be. Modern readers may well think of strong drink as distilled liquor. But that is not what the Bible means by the term shekar. Since the process of distilling alcohol did not develop until around A.D. 500, the strongest alcoholic beverage people could make in Bible times contained only 14 percent alcohol by volume, approximately the maximum produced by natural fermentation. This fact tells us that the scriptural term strong drink certainly gives us no license to drink what we know today as hard liquor.
If distilled alcohol is not what the Bible means by shekar, what does it mean?
Here is where ancient languages related to Hebrew can be helpful. Documents written in cuneiform script on clay tablets tell us that the Babylonians had an alcoholic beverage they called shikaru. (Notice how similar this Babylonian word is to the Hebrew shekar. It is actually the same word in two related Semitic languages.) Some of these clay tablets tell how shikaru was made so we can easily determine what beverage they are describing. From grain, the Babylonians made a mash which was allowed to ferment. In other words, these tablets that speak about making shikaru are talking about making beer! Since the Bible texts that use the word shekar are referring to the same drink, they are talking about beer as well.
This is something extremely relevant to our modern society. Here are Bible texts talking about beer-the beverage that is so widely advertized on American TV and that is so widely consumed by the American public.
And what view does the Bible take of this beverage? A very dim and negative view indeed. Of 21 Old Testament texts that mention shekar (beer), 19 strongly condemn it. The other two texts present special cases (we'll discuss one of these later). The New Testament mentions this same beverage only once and prohibits its use by John the Baptist as he grew up.
To give something of the picture these 19 Old Testament texts convey, let's look at what some of them say about shekar: Leviticus 10:9 prohibits its use by a priest in ministry; Numbers 6:2, 3 forbids Nazarites from drinking it; in Judges 13:3, 4 an angel warns Samson's mother-to-be not to drink it during her pregnancy; in Deuteronomy 29:5, 6 God tells the Israelites that He did not provide this drink for them in their wilderness wanderings.
There is also the interesting story of Hannah. She went to the tabernacle at Shiloh and prayed so earnestly about the fact that she was childless that the priest accused her of being drunk with shekar. This she denied. See 1 Samuel 1:15.
The prophets of Judah in the eighth century B.C. were especially vigorous in their condemnation of strong drink, or beer. Isaiah mentions it eight times, and each reference is strongly negative. He pronounces a woe upon those who drink it (Isa 5:11) and notes that it would not bring mirth when God cursed the land (Isa 24:9). He points out that beer causes staggering (Isa 29:9) and that false priests and prophets were two groups who especially staggered from its effects (Isa 28:7). The prophet Micah noted that the people wanted precisely this kind of leader-one who would approve of its use (Mic 2:11). Proverbs 20:1 speaks of rage and brawling as two of its side effects.
Thus we see an almost universal condemnation of beer in the Old Testament. But what about Deuteronomy 14:22-28? This text doesn't seem to fit the pattern; it seems to indicate that Israelites could actually pay part of their tithe in beer! Some have seen in this a modern license for beer-drinking.
First, we should carefully note that Deuteronomy 14 is dealing with a special use under special circumstances. The chapter takes up the subject of the tithe in verses 22 and 23. In a later section, it speaks about what might be called "delayed tithe." It is here that beer occurs as part of the "delayed tithe."
What is all this talking about?
Deuteronomy 14 identifies the tithe as certain foods and drinks that the Israelite was to take to the sanctuary located centrally in the nation. When the tithe was paid regularly and on time, the products offered were to include newborn lambs and calves, freshly pressed oil, new unfermented wine or grape juice (tirosh), and grain. All these were fresh products that came from the harvest of the new agricultural year.
But what was the Israelite to do if for some reason he couldn't get to the sanctuary with these fresh products? He was to make a substitution, and it is this substitution that verses 24-26 describe.
Verse 24 presents the problem: that of an Israelite who was not able to get to the sanctuary on time. Verse 25 presents the intermediate solution: he was to convert his tithe into silver and retain the money until he was able to go to the sanctuary. Verse 26 gives the final step in presenting the delayed tithe. When he arrived at the sanctuary, the Israelite was to purchase some of the same agricultural products he should have brought earlier and eat the tithe meal before the Lord.
But the products he purchased for the tithe meal must be mature to show symbolically that the tithe presentation was late. Thus he did not present a lamb; he purchased a mature sheep for presentation. He did not present a calf, but a mature ox. Instead of fresh grape juice (tirosh) he presented yayin, wine that had fermented with the passing of time. And he did not present grain; he presented beer that had been made from grain. In each case, the delayed tithe meal consisted of things chosen to correspond to and show the development of the agricultural product which should have been presented originally. Although not readily apparent, this actually involved an interest penalty since the ox would cost more than a calf and the sheep more than a lamb.
Under these special circumstances, the symbolic substitution of beer for the earlier grain when presenting "delayed tithe" can by no means be taken as a license for unrestricted recreational use of beer-either then or now. Especially when beer is elsewhere condemned in the Old Testament.
When we turn to the subject of wine in the Scriptures, we find two main words-tirosh which usually refers to grape juice in its unfermented state, the way it comes from the press as a new agricultural product, and yayin, a word with less clear meanings.
In 30 of the 38 references to tirosh in the Old Testament it is paired with grain and oil, or oil alone, as products of the harvest used for tithe and taxes, etc. Three texts (Mic 6:15; Isa 62:8; 65:8) refer to tirosh as the product of the grape; four texts (Prov 3:10; Joel 2:24; Mic 6:15; and Hos 9:2) speak of tirosh as produced by pressing. Only one text (Hos 4:11) suggests that tirosh may produce intoxication-and this text may actually be referring to early fermentation or to the practice of mixing new and old (fermented) wine.
Thus tirosh appears to refer almost exclusively to unfermented wine or grape juice. But yayin, the other main word that the Bible uses for wine, clearly means fermented wine in most cases.
The Old Testament uses the word yayin some 140 times. Before dealing with specific texts, let's get a general overview of its use in the Bible. By my count, the Bible presents yayin in a negative light 60 times; in about 60 more cases it simply mentions it without making any value judgment, and in only 17 references does it possibly say something positive about it. Thus yayin, fermented wine, is spoken of negatively much more often that it is positively.
On the negative side, first of all, are the stories in which fermented wine produces bad results. Not many (if any) historical narratives in the Old Testament mention a beneficial outcome from the use of wine, but several end disastrously: the drunkenness of Noah (Gen 9:21); Lot (Gen 19:32-35); Nabal (1 Sam 25:36, 37); Amnon (2 Sam 13:28); Belshazzar (Dan 5:1-3); and Ahasuerus (Esth 1:1-10), for example.
Isaiah (51:21); Jeremiah (23:9); Hosea (4:11; 7:5); Joel (1:5); and Habbakuk (2:15) are among the Bible prophets who point out the ill effects, both physical and moral, which intoxicating wine produces.
Proverbs 23:29-35 describes wine's immediate physical effects (red eyes and blurred vision), its immediate social effects (strife and wounds), as well as the long-term results (woe and sorrow). Elsewhere, the book of Proverbs refers to wine as producing poverty (21:17) and violence (4:17). Isaiah adds that it deceives the mind (28:7), inflames a person, and leads to forgetfulness of God (5:11, 12).
Those texts which point to certain useful functions of wine should not be overlooked, but they should be placed in perspective. Three texts (Ps 104:15; Eccl 9:7; 10:19) mention that wine can make the heart glad and bring cheer. This indicates an awareness of the immediate physiological effects of alcohol, but these texts need to be placed along side the many other Bible statements mentioning its nonbeneficial long-term results.
Ecclesiastes 9:7 and 10:19 might superficially appear to give approval for indulging in alcohol. In a bit of ancient philosophy, Ecclesiastes 9:7 says, "Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already approved what you do." RSV. It is a description of the author's search for those things that bring meaning in life. This text is pointing out that man should be content with certain common duties of life-including eating and drinking, even wine. However, the book ends with the author's finding a greater good to provide meaning in life-that man should fear God and keep His commandments. See chapter 12:13. All the other experiences in which the author tries to find meaning fade in significance beside this.
At least seven other Bible texts which appear to speak favorably of yayin do so merely by means of comparison; they are not speaking directly about wine itself. For example, the Song of Solomon uses a comparison with wine four times (1:2, 4; 4:10; and 7:9) to bring out the beloved's beauty. Hosea 14:7 uses the fragrance of wine from Lebanon as a comparison. Proverbs 9:5, 6 uses wine figuratively in talking about the "banquet of life" that wisdom provides. Amos 9:14 and Zechariah 10:7 use the merriment that wine creates as a figure of how God's people will rejoice at the time of His final victory.
Wine was also used as a drink offering in the temple service, just as we have seen that beer was used in the presentation of delayed tithe. These drink offerings were poured out beside the altar; they were not drunk by the priests.
Thus most of the texts which mention wine favorably actually use it figuratively in comparisons. A few speak of its immediate physiological effects. But by far the majority describe its detrimental results-such as wicked acts committed in connection with drinking wine. Isaiah, for example, associates wine with the taking of bribes. See Isaiah 5:22, 23. Amos combines wine with profaning sacred things. See Amos 2:8.
In summary, the writers of the Old Testament raise four indictments against drinking wine. First, they recognize its immediate adverse physical effects-redness of the eyes, blurring of vision, staggering, and drunkenness in general. Second, they recognize its long-term moral effects-various kinds of immoral and unethical behavior along with the social results of such actions. Third, they identify particular instances of such behavior and connect them with specific persons. Fourth, because of its effects, they prohibit certain classes and specific individuals from drinking any wine.
In contrast to this large negative picture, about the only positive images the Bible gives of alcohol are three texts that note alcohol can produce a state of levity (certainly a valid physiological observation). The Bible writers also occasionally use wine to draw some favorable comparisons in figures of speech. (Yet they also use wine to symbolize some unfavorable comparisons as well. See the "wine of wrath" in Psalm 75:8 and Jeremiah 25:15).
How then should we personally relate to alcohol in view of the overall picture given in the Old Testament? If one takes the whole picture into account and evaluates all the evidence, the most reasonable conclusion is that the only safe course is complete abstinence from alcohol in any form.
I am absolutely in shock that Lee is my age. You act as if you are 80 years old! What difference does it make if there's beer on the shelf at a grocery store? How in the world does that violate your rights? How will my beer-drinking at Chilis affect YOU? It's a matter of CHOICE, and I am tired of not having a CHOICE in my own town where I live, work, and pay taxes. You guys will just have to put your blinders on, because alcohol is coming whether you want to deal with it or not. (P.S. It's already HERE! Shocking, I know)
Jeff! Thank you kind sir! I needed that pat on the back and thanks for the model citizen vote! I have to humbly disagree...I should not be the picture of model citizenry. Neh...wasn't really desperately seeking a pat on the back but I want everyone to realize we have to respect each other. Either way the vote goes...we have to come together!
Anonymous,
$37 million sounds like a huge number but do you know that will not even purchase one school to be built? It would go a long way but one school in the entire state of North Carolina? Alcohol revenue bought that? Randolph County alone needs to pay for three high schools. If alcohol is so economically fruitful, why is it not generating more money statewide?
Let me address the argument about Randleman not getting the profit it needs because of not having liquor by the drink. If getting liquor by the drink in Randleman would cause hotels and better restaurants to come to town, how in the world has Asheboro gotten as many hotels and restaurants as it has without alcohol sales at all? Let me get those numbers straight. One ABC store offered Randleman $318042 in revenue which is 5% of their budget? You mean Randleman needs $6,360,840 to operate annually? OK...I'll go along with that but where do you actually see the benefits from such high numbers? Why are water bills and city taxes increasing in Randleman while the aldermen and mayor continue to increase their own salaries? Why are the tax payers not getting any relief from that vast amount of ABC money while the town officials are voting to increase their own salaries? Do you not think the same would occur in Asheboro? Have you ever met a politician who thinks they or the government has too much money?
Jeff,
Pick your jaw up off the floor...its ok. Why do I seem 80 years old because I have a different opinion than you. You might be shocked at the number of young people who agree with me.
Listen...whether you realize it or not, you have come the closest to the best argument I have seen. You want alcohol to come to Asheboro simply because you want a beer. I can't argue with that! That's what you want! I'm tired of all the posturing about the DWIs, economic impact, etc. that just isn't true. The facts have been manipulated to fit one side or the other when actually it comes down to you want a beer. Fine. I don't want it here. Simple as that!
It would be nice if we could "all respect each other" but that ship has long since sailed. In a town like this, it always goes back to the Bible and people climbing upon their high horses to cast stones at us sinners (great example, you fine Christians!). Mind you, I'm not mocking religion as a whole, because my grandmother is truly a Christian who lives by the book and I admire her for that. However, she also realizes that it's not her place to JUDGE and CONDEMN those of us who like to have a good time and are tired of having to drive at least 30 minutes away to do so. This town is dismal and depressing and I welcome any chance to make it more lively. I'm sure someone will kindly say something along the lines of "if you don't like it, move away!" and believe me, I will. I stay in this town out of a sense of obligation to help care for my parents. However, when they are gone, and if this town still sucks as much as it currently does (beer or no beer), you can bet I will move on to a place that's not so backward and judgmental.
Lee,
Yes, it comes down to me wanting to go out, grab a bite to eat, and wash it down with a cold beer without having to waste twice the cost of the meal in gas to obtain these pleasures. I have never been a fan of being told what to do, and it's time that the citizens of this place have a choice about whether to engage in such heathen activities. I'm not saying I want Asheboro to be filled with seedy bars and strip joints, and I'm sure nobody else really wants that either. I have yet to see anyone go out to eat at a restaurant and get stupid-drunk. The most I ever have with a meal is 2 drinks...believe me, I'm fine. How could that possibly be offensive or infringing on anyone's rights? To me, it's more offensive to watch some of these morbidly obese folks around here stuff their faces and guzzle sweet tea by the gallon while I'm trying to enjoy my meal. And don't even get me started on the subject of children in restaurants, my god, I could write volumes on the matter. Now that I think of it, if my beer isn't allowed in a restaurant, fatties and children should be banned also. Who's with me?
Jeff,
I am not going to come at you with the "like it or leave it" because I don't want to live in a place where everyone has the exact same viewpoints. I hope you stay regardless of the outcome because we need differing opinions. It is what's made this country great. I don't think the ship has totally sailed. I don't know you personally but from what you have described of yourself, you seem like a fine, upstanding contributor to our city and community who cares about people. You and I fall on the opposite side of the fence on this argument but one thing we have in common: we want the best for Asheboro, we just have differing opinions on how to get there. Should alcohol pass, I will be the first to extend my hand and stand with you to make sure any revenue goes to the appropriate places and we have leaders who will be responsible. I would hope many of the proponents would extend their hand and work to continue marketed Asheboro as the best place to visit and stay in the area. United we stand, divided we fall.
Now Jeff,
Having children softens the blow on children in restaurants; however, if my child screams and cries, I believe I would leave him with his grandma while I went out. I'm in semi-agreement with you there. If we ban "fatties" and children, that is discrimination...can't do that. Banning alcohol sales is not discrimination even though it will be said "I am being discriminated against because I am an alcohol drinker." No, that is an attack on a person in which some people honestly cannot help being overweight. Obesity is a disease. If you banned those people you would have to ban cancer patients, AIDS victims, and all other diseases. Alcoholism is a disease but not simply drinking alcohol.
I agree, I think the majority of proponents would not like to see stip clubs and bars. I honestly do not think they will begin popping up but will slowly come to Asheboro. My only concern with this is what if our children get into these places? I know for certain underage teens can get into these establishments and the establishments go unpunished.
I trust you can moderate yourself but what about those who can't? Talk about overweight people, you don't dangle a doughnut in front of a dieting overweight person do you? We have to think about those folks as well.
I cannot claim Asheboro is the "best place to visit and stay in the area" with a straight face. My favorite line: People talk about how this is a fine place to raise children, and with alcohol it will all go to hell. Good lord, I work in a public school! I know exactly what these kids are exposed to and it ain't exactly wholesome. Just because we are living in a bubble does not mean that our young people will never be exposed to drugs, alcohol, tobacco, etc. On a personal note, I have lived in this town since birth. I smoked my first cigarette at 12 behind a car at my friend's house(yuck). I was first offered drugs as a freshman in high school in gym class (declined). I never drank a drop of alcohol until I was 18 and away at college. Were my friends drinking in high school? You bet. Are kids here drinking now? Of course. It's not right, but it happens. I have students come in and tell me about how their parents lock themselves in bedrooms so they can "smoke drugs" as they put it. I could go on, but it's very depressing to think about. Alcohol is really the LEAST of this town's concerns. I invite each of you to come into our schools and see the realities that some of these kids are facing in this fine, dry town.
On doughnuts and moderation...
Each and every one of us is responsible for our own actions. I expect people to have self-control, and those that don't will be weeded out by natural selection anyway. I'm married to an alcoholic, and yet I'm still going to vote FOR. Just because a few of us are "diseased" (I laugh, because I do not buy that obesity, alcoholism, etc. are true "diseases" but rather self-inflicted conditions) does not mean that the rest of us must walk on eggshells so as not to tempt them. Do we need to keep Krispy Kremes off the shelves because some obese person is going to be tempted? What about the rights of the vast majority who can walk right by those doughnuts and not think twice? Same with booze.
Jeff,
I, too, am an educator. I no longer work in the school because I am now an administrator. I know what our children have to go through day to day. This issue is prevalent in all schools and I know it is a fault of our failing educational system, poor administration, and apathy from faculty, staff, parents, and students and not the town in which we live. I know these amenities are available for students anywhere you go. But, how does making alcohol even more readily available make the situation any better?
Great points. I am making the argument that some people cannot moderate and that is the disease. Some people do have a chemical imbalance in the brain that causes extremes in all areas like eating, drinking, sexual activity, etc. Whether the imbalance is self-inflicted or not, it is still a disease.
I tell you what...
Should this pass, I'll be happy to "put a few back" with you...you beer...me tea (although I won't guzzle...I use the IV drip). I'll try not to be offended even though I apparently act like I'm 80!
Lee Said: "$37 million sounds like a huge number but do you know that will not even purchase one school to be built? It would go a long way but one school in the entire state of North Carolina? Alcohol revenue bought that? Randolph County alone needs to pay for three high schools. If alcohol is so economically fruitful, why is it not generating more money statewide?"
Lee, do you realize that the entire city of Asheboro operates on a $25 Million budget?
Again, it's not just the direct tax dollars derived, it's about Asheboro dumping its image as a restrictive society, an image that shuns other revenue generating opportunities.
Like it or not, if you want people's money, you have to cater TO THEM, not he other way around.
Gahhhh you're an administrator, the horror...
I never said alcohol would make things any better for our town or our children, but how could it really make it that much worse? I get the impression that some of your "anti" contingent believes that this city will dissolve into mass chaos the minute the referendum passes. As if the word will come down and the rapists, murderers, etc. will come crawling out of the woodwork to prey on the innocents! We are not talking about passing out crack pipes to every citizen, we are really talking about the chance to enjoy an adult beverage with dinner (or lunch, as I have been known to do on occasion) or purchase adult beverages to be enjoyed in the comfort of one's own home. For years I have just accepted the lack of this availability as something stupid and backwards but tolerated it because that's just "how things are in Asheboro." After all, I've spent 28 years here. Now that we have a REAL chance to make it happen, I am on the edge of my seat. I do not foresee the mass chaos that some are fearing. Greensboro hasn't erupted in a storm of fire yet.
Lee said: Quality of life in Asheboro is good and you can't find quality of life in a bottle."
I don't believe that has ever been a proposition.
You may wish to leave religion out of this discussion but we are where we are today in this discussion due to religion. Cause and effect demands that it's relationship, and the infallibility/ inerrancy issue be considered. As I stated earlier, according to Gordon Conwell in 2006, 38,000 denominations exist today many hold conflicting views over doctrines that are instrumental in regard to salvation. So much for the argument of Blaise Pascal.
What your argument says to me is that the book that is held to be the final authority of faith and practice is insufficient to tell us what is commanded of us. Better safe than sorry? Revelation comes down to, "let's not take any chances?"
You left out a couple of scriptures, 1 Timothy 3:8
Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain.
What about deacons who are against alcohol in Asheboro but are part owners in a golf course that sells alcohol? Or perhaps individuals that are against alcohol but own a business that allows weddings and civic functions to bring their own? Does principle only apply when other people's money is at stake?
Deuteronomy 14:26
Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.
Drinking fermented stuff in the presence of the LORD?
Leviticus 10:9
"You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come.
Why would they stipulate "into the tent of meeting," why not all the time?
Numbers 6:3
he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins.
Whoops, there goes welches and raisins from Asheboro.
Esther 1:8
By the king's command each guest was allowed to drink in his own way, for the king instructed all the wine stewards to serve each man what he wished.
Psalm 60:3
You have shown your people desperate times; you have given us wine that makes us stagger
Psalm 104:15
wine that gladdens the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains his
Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise.
Lee I put this in just for you, however this, like the rest of the verses you have cited does not refer to a universal prohibition, but moderation.
Proverbs 31:6
Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish;
Ecclesiastes 10:19
A feast is made for laughter, and wine makes life merry, but money is the answer for everything.
Do not show this to the "for "crowd!
Song of Solomon 7:2
Your navel is a rounded goblet that never lacks blended wine. Your waist is a mound of wheat encircled by lilies.
Whoops, how did that get in there? This is not for open bible reading in the 5th grade.
Ezekiel 44:21
20 " 'They must not shave their heads or let their hair grow long, but they are to keep the hair of their heads trimmed. 21 No priest is to drink wine when he enters the inner court. 22 They must not marry widows or divorced women; they may marry only virgins of Israelite descent or widows of priests.
No drinking in the inner court....got it.
Joel 1:5
Wake up, you drunkards, and weep! Wail, all you drinkers of wine; wail because of the new wine, for it has been snatched from your lips
Why would the prophet use as a metaphor something that was forbidden?
Proverbs 31:4-5
"It is not for kings, O Lemuel—
not for kings to drink wine,
not for rulers to crave beer,
5 lest they drink and forget what the law decrees,
and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.
When I become a ruler I will be sure to obey this one.
Lee,
We live in a universe that according to most people in the fields of cosmology, astrophysics and other scientific disciplines is approx. 13.7 billion years old. We occupy the outer band of a galaxy in which there are 100 billion stars, most of which dwarf our own. There are tens of billions of galaxy's in the known universe. Now, Lee I know that there are still a lot of people who think that the universe is 6,000 years old and that mankind is depraved and fallen as a result of someone eating some exotic fruit at the prompting of a talking snake. There are still people who believe that the earth is flat and that the sun circles around the earth. (geocentric)
But I don't. Thomas Jefferson once said: "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
OK Jean,
It is very easy to take scriptures completely out of context and without knowledge of the original text in which they were written. Let me help you with understanding each of the scriptures you have offered. By the way, what version of the Bible are you referring to? That would also indicate the accuracy of what you are reading.
Deuteronomy 14:6: This is a reference to the tithe. It is about sacrificing the lustful desires before the Lord.
Leviticus 10:9: Why does the author have to refer to the immorality of alcohol when it is common knowledge amongst the people? This is a direct and specific reference to conduct in the temple by the priest.
Numbers 6:3: The actual verse is making reference to drinking the liquor of grapes and the liquor from wet grapes and liquorous raisins.
Yes you can get those too. Interesting how the author specifically condemns liquor from "wet" grapes. Get it all in there, Jean.
Ecc. 10:19: The whole chapter is about the personal thoughts of a sinful world. The whole chapter is a negative!
Get it all in there, Jean.
Esther 1:8: The law you are referring to is a law of King Ahasuerus. He was not Jewish and was considered Gentile or worldly. Of course, he would make this law.
Include it all!
Psalm 60:3, 104:15: The original text is one of the 15 words used for wine in the Hebrew. This one is not yayin which is the Hebrew word for fermented wine.
Proverbs 20:1: Thank you for including that one for me! It is blatantly obvious. If you follow, you are not wise.
Proverbs 31: This is in reference to those who are too far beyond the help of what's right. This is symbolism about today's society. They refuse to hear what is good and right so let them have what they want and be damned.
Not my words...
Song of Solomon: Pick any scripture in this book. It is all imagery. Any scholar will tell you that.
Ezekiel 44:21: Wine and strong drink has already forcefully been condemned in previous books (which would have been told and read by this prophet). Again, why should he repeat it. This was a reference directly related to the priesthood and how they should conduct themselves.
Joel 1:5: You have to read the whole context! This is a reference to the reaction of those who can't get their liquor! Weeping and wailing! We are hearing lots of that today. Great scripture!
Jean,
I am not an expert in the field of cosmology and astrophysics; however, what you have described to me increases my faith in a God that has existed long before 13.7 billion years, Who creates 100 billion stars (and probably more), and has created tens of billions of galaxies. I don't care how old the earth is, I know God is older. I don't care if the earth circles the sun, the moon, itself, or if all of that circles the earth. I know God made it to happen that way. Archaeologists are now discovering fossils of snakes that had legs too. I know that man fell due to disobedience not eating a fruit and I know Jesus Christ died on the cross, was buried, and rose again to forgive that sin. If God didn't create the earth, who or what did? I am interested in hearing your viewpoint on how the universe came into existence.
I am assuming you are an atheist. That's your choice but I hope you change your mind soon. There is a God, there is a heaven and hell, and we will find out one day who's right and who's wrong. If you are right, I've lost nothing. I've just lived a good life. If I am right...what then, Jean?
Interesting quote from Jefferson. Last thing I read about him, he was a Christian and firmly believed in God.
Jeff,
I promise I am a good administrator. The kind you don't have to deal with in school and listens to teachers!
I work in Greensboro. Come to our schools sometime. You are invited. You will be shocked. More shocked than Randolph County. We have several schools that are nearly out-of-control and gang violence is higher in Greensboro than nearly every other city in the state. It is almost erupting into a firestorm.
Lee,
Are you implying that there is some sort of correlation between booze-in-Greensboro and gangs in the city's schools? Because that seems a bit of a stretch. I work at the elementary level so gangs aren't really an issue, but lack of parenting sure is (and it all is happenening in this little old dry town!). I spent a semester in an elementary school in Greensboro...bad experience, but more the fault of the principal than the teachers/kids in the school.
I suppose I'm glad people keep reproducing because it keeps me employed, but...
Judgeth,
I am saying that alcohol sales have made little to no impact from the numbers you gave me. I'm glad Asheboro operates on a $25 million dollar budget. I have seen and dealt with many larger budgets than that. It can be easily done without alcohol.
Jeff,
Just a side question...
Do you ever get called "the big Lebowski?" Just a question...
Jeff,
Actually, I know there is not a direct correlation between alcohol and gangs. Not implying that at all. Gangs are everywhere; however, it is getting out of hand in Greensboro. What elementary school were you in in Guilford?
Actually, I am not the Big Lebowski, or Mr. Lebowski. I am simply The Dude.
I was at Alderman in Gboro.
Lee said: I'm glad Asheboro operates on a $25 million dollar budget. I have seen and dealt with many larger budgets than that. It can be easily done without alcohol.
Yes, Lee, it's being "easily done" right now with high residential taxes, a shrinking industry base and an understaffed police force. Glad you find things are just humming along wonderfully with Asheboro's budgetary challenges.
Since you have so much confidence in our ability to operate on such a budget, I would love to hear more about your thoughts on revenue GROWTH in Asheboro.
Instead of firing away at alcohol, how about telling us how YOU would increase our tax revenue and bring relief to our residential taxpayers?
Give us your vision for "promoting" our dry city. What's your pitch to corpoarations with middle-to-upper-income earners and what's your pitch to the average middle-class wage-earner (most of which like to have an alcoholic beverage)?
What are the benefits that will make them overlook the fact that the local government is still living in the prohibition era?
Jeffrey Lebowski said: Actually, I am not the Big Lebowski, or Mr. Lebowski. I am simply The Dude.
Sorry about your carpet :)
Whoa! Judgeth! Hostility, hostility! Maybe you need a drink! I'm only kidding...
First off, the industry base in Asheboro has remained the same on the whole. It has not decreased. Second, residential taxes may be high, but go to other towns of this size and see how much higher they are. I cannot emphasize this enough...Alcohol will NOT lower your residential taxes. The tax dollars that are currently being spent on frivolous pet projects of our city goverment need to be better utilized and redirected to paying the police force better and hiring new officers. Our problems in Asheboro is not that we don't have alcohol...it is the city goverment!
Well...if by some miracle I was voted governor of our fine state, I would provide tax incentives to businesses to have them come to our state. First, the council members must work with the mayor to in turn work with the governor to make this happen. With tax incentives, you bet your bottom dollar businesses will come to town.
The taxes paid in Asheboro are just being redirected in ways they should not be. Just attend a budget meeting and look at the document...you'll see. Asheboro is just a microcosm of what is happening in our state and in Washington. Senators and congress people earmarking money for their own rediculous pet projects. How much money are we spending putting this referendum on? How many of MY tax dollars are being used for this? My say was not heard by our city council.
On the contrary, the majority of middle-class wage-earners prefer not to drink. We are not living in the prohibition era. This has been a legal vote held each time the referendum has been proposed and it has been defeated each time. Prohibition would disregard a vote. This is democracy at work!
Awesome! Jeff, the Dude! Alderman, huh? Hmmm...how did you like that?
Judgeth! I am so happy to see you smiling and making a joke...I was thinking you may be too uptight!
That rug really tied the room together, man...
Alderman was under...interesting leadership at the time. The kids were great, but the staff had no respect for the principal and it was basically a zoo around there. I was glad to move onto greener pastures.
Dude,
What grade did you teach? I was always a high school teacher. Just couldn't handle wiping noses and butts at the elementary level. I'd much rather break up fights I guess!
I have found many administrations in GCS are very zoo-like and it is because the good administrators leave after about 2 years or less and the bad ones stay forever, you know what I mean? You can't get rid of them! Talk about parties...administrators and really bring one down quick.
Lee said:"...
1) First off, the industry base in Asheboro has remained the same on the whole...
2) The tax dollars that are currently being spent on frivolous pet projects...
3)...the majority of middle-class wage-earners prefer not to drink...
Lee, I'm not "uptight" at all. I've got a great sense of humor and I LOVE a good debate.
However, a good debate stems from differing viewpoints sprouting from the same FACTUAL base of issues.
We can't debate--or even have a logical conversation--with manufactured facts and figures. It's simply a waste of time to sit here and try to cram the factual round pegs in to square holes of absurdity.
Got a good joke? I'm all ears, but as far as debating the serious issues with you, I'm afraid I'm all done.
Lee,
I am not an atheist and Jefferson could not be elected today because he was a deist; and what you and I are both wrong? Do you fear Islamic hell? Do you ever think about it? You most likely believe what you believe because of where you were born, had you been born in Pakistan, today you'd most likely be expounding the virtues of Islam. As I said earlier 99% of all believers adopt the religion of the culture and family in which they were raised. Christianity fares no higher conversion percentage.
The people who wrote the bible believed in a three tiered universe with a firmament holding back the waters and stars placed in the firmament. They had no clue of the vastness of the universe.
My point to you that you seemed to totally miss is that that I need for you to take a giant step backward and look at the bigger picture. You are so focused on trying to prove your point that you can't see that all the references of alcohol in the bible do not indicate and or equal prohibition. If they don't ALL equal prohibition then either scripture is not demanding prohibition or your bible has contradictions. If your bible has contradictions you have a bigger problem than alcohol.
With respect to Pascal's wager that you posited, with 38,000 denominations how do you know that you have embraced the correct interpretation??
Consistent epistemology would demand more than, "I just know." If that is your position go back to the section on dogmatism and read it again. "Knowing" requires the obligations to confirm or prove what you claim to know.
One more quote from Jefferson and I have to go,
"Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful to society the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one."
Thomas Jefferson
O.K. this is absolutely the last one, "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826), Letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper (February 10, 1814)
O.K. I lied.
Democracy is 51% of the people taking away the rights of the other 49%.
Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)
Which is one reason we are a constitutional republic.
Have a great evening!
Judgeth,
I will debate the FACTS when you present a FACT with a citation to prove that FACT. Just because we say we have facts doesn't make them facts at all.
I am telling you that you need to attend budget meetings and obtain a copy of the budget so you can see for yourself where the tax dollars are going. This is stuff that cannot be disputed and you'll find it in the budget!
Show me through statistics and numbers where businesses are disappearing on a greater plane than what is normal capitalism at work. Show me exactly how $25 million are being spent by our city government, prove there are no frivolous project, prove how alcohol sales will alleviate this problem through examples from other towns or cities who have had success with it, and prove how alcohol will lower our taxes. I am still waiting for those facts to be presented by you.
I gave you what you asked for and now you don't want to debate me anymore. I gave you a plan to bring businesses here without alcohol, I gave you a way to look up exact numbers and facts on your own so you won't have to take my word for it. I must say...my feelings are hurt!
Now, we have to be careful with stats as well because anyone can lie with stats. For example, did you know there is a statistical high correlation between alcohol consumption and drowning? This comes from Potsdam University researchers. I could go to the newspapers and lie with this and say, "if you drink alcohol you will die from drowing." Well...it is possible but you won't die from drowning because you drank alcohol. You could die from drowning by getting drunk and being near water. But that would only happen if you were alone, so inebriated you couldn't swim, or you simply cannot swim. Too many outlier factors involved!
I could go to the newspaper and say there is a high correlation between drowning and consuming alcohol and be truthful on the surface but that is a "lie wrapped with a thin piece of truth." See what I am saying?
Be careful with quoting facts and stats. One clear example in this debate is how the "for" side has stated there are more DWIs and DUIs in Asheboro than in Greensboro. The truth of the matter is that statistical data was actually comparing the strict city limits of Greensboro to the entire county of Randolph. You have to read the fine print because many will try to fleece you with so called "hard data." I'll venture to bet there are many DWI and DUI arrests around the Guilford County border.
I can say, "middle class wage earners prefer to drink more than any other class." That statement would be partially true! The part that is missing is, "middle class wage earners prefer to drink more than any other class in England." That comes from the BBC by the way. See...I originally stated a fact that was true but not completely.
Here's another statistical wrinkle. Did you know that heavy taxation in other cities across the world has decreased the amount of alcohol consumption, thus decreasing the amount of money generated? This comes from a researcher with Amarach Research and he is all for selling alcohol and reducing the taxes on it. Don't you think something like that could possibly happen here?
Here's more facts:
Causes of death associated with drinking were cirrhosis and alcoholism; cancers of the mouth, esophagus, pharynx, larynx, and liver combined; breast cancer in women; and injuries and other external causes in men. The mortality from breast cancer was 30 percent higher among women reporting at least one drink daily than among nondrinkers (relative risk, 1.3; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.1 to 1.6). The rates of death from all cardiovascular diseases were 30 to 40 percent lower among men (relative risk, 0.7; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.7 to 0.8) and women (relative risk, 0.6; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.6 to 0.7) reporting at least one drink daily than among nondrinkers, with little relation to the level of consumption.
That came from the New England Journal of Medicine. Why do you think insurance adjusters ask you if you drink? Because it is more of a risk to insure a drinker.
I could go on but I have worked long hours today and I am going home to my family.
One last thing to Jean and Jean, I promise to write more tomorrow...I am just tired.
The apostle John wrote about being caught up into the third heaven. He was aware of the atmosphere, stratosphere, outer space, and the third heaven which is heaven. Writers of the Bible also spoke of beings terrestrial and beings celestial (not alien beings of course).
I want you to prove there is not a God. Where is your epistemology? I can prove there is a God because I know Him. How else did the universe get here...thats what I am asking. Your assertion is that you do not believe God created the universe, then prove your assertion. It is a two-way street, Jean. I know God is real because I have experienced Him. Have you experienced the way in which you think the universe was created?
Your point with the references in the Bible was not taken because you are incorrect. You cannot cherry-pick portions of scripture to make your point which is what you attempted to do. I read the entire context and have studied the scriptures in ancient form and meaning.
If I were born a Muslim and had I been approached by a Christian, I would hope I would have converted. I know many Muslims who have been converted. Do you hear of Christians converted to Islam being killed by other Christians for doing so? If so, prove it. You do hear of Christians being killed for converting from Islam by other Muslims.
Here's the simple fact of the matter. Christians on this blog have been slammed for their beliefs but I ask this question: If you were flying a plane and you knew you were going down, where would you rather land knowing you would have the best human rights?
A) Saudi Arabia
B) Iran
C) Syria
D) USA
The answer would overwhelmingly be USA because you would have no human rights in those other countries. I digress...
Jean, I feel it is you who needs to step back and look at the bigger picture because you have totally missed it all together. I believe you are a very well-read, learned man but you have read too many opinions that cannot be backed by facts and experiences. Too many theories and hypotheses.
Listen, Dude, Judgeth, and Jean. You three are the best and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I thoroughly enjoy debating you guys and I will talk with you tomorrow. Have a great evening!
Lee said: "I am telling you that you need to attend budget meetings and obtain a copy of the budget so you can see for yourself where the tax dollars are going."
Got it right here, along with several hundred documents from the Strategic Planning Committee studies/findings. To which frivolous projects are you referring? What account/category and what project?
10-410.00 Mayor and Governing Body $160,918
10-420.00 City Manager’s Office $164,692
10-440.00 Finance Office $542,477
10-450.00 Legal & City Clerk $201,896
10-480.00 Information Technology $164,471
10-490.00 Planning/Community Development $469,502
10-500.00 Municipal Building Headquarters $76,500
10-510.00 Police Department $5,845,353
10-530.00 Fire Department $3,543,502
10-540.00 Inspections Department $210,298
10-550.00 Operations Division - Public Works $714,992
10-555.00 Fleet Maintenance $900,103
10-565.00 Street Maintenance $1,911,537
10-575.00 City Engineer Office $242,792
10-580.00 Sanitation / Solid Waste Department $2,539,492
10-585.00 Recycling Transfer Station $197,033
10-590.00 Human Resources $463,407
10-610.00 Community Promotion $155,437
10-620.00 Parks/Lakes/Playgrounds $1,335,833
10-625.00 Municipal Golf Course $184,890
10-630.00 Library $256,231
10-640.00 Building & Grounds Maintenance $1,345,111
10-650.00 Airport Authority $83,100
Total Appropriations $21,709,567
Lee said: "Show me through statistics and numbers where businesses are disappearing on a greater plane than what is normal capitalism at work.
Normal capitalism at work? That's a completely subjective term. Regardless, here's the bottom line of jobs lost here just in the past few years. In my research, I haven't found any significant job gains to offset these numbers. It's going to take more than a couple dozen minimum-wage Chili's jobs to make up for it. If you have any data to offset these, please share.
* Black and Decker closing- 834 jobs
* Fox Apparel - 120 jobs
* Klaussner - 130 jobs
* Sarah Lee closing - 200 jobs
* Goodyear - 330 jobs
* Acme-McCrary- 200 jobs
* Champagne Dye Works- 70 jobs
Lee said: "Show me exactly how $25 million are being spent by our city government, prove there are no frivolous project
You've made a general, uncited claim that our city government is guilty of frivolous spending and you want others to prove you're wrong? I've now provided you with the budget overview and a link to a conscise version online. Support YOUR claim, Lee.
Lee said: "prove how alcohol sales will alleviate this problem through examples from other towns or cities who have had success with it, and prove how alcohol will lower our taxes."
Firstly, I think it's a good enough argument that the majority of Asheboro citizens simply WANT to be afforded the same freedom that more than 90% of the rest of the country enjoys every day. I personally think it's ridiculous that committees must be formed, money must be spent and research must be proven to "sell the idea" of gaining access to something that is completely legal and readily available in the United States.
When this ordinance was put in place, did the signatories have to present the same kind of material? Did they have to do CBA's and case studies to put this in place? The answer is no. It was done so because (then) the radically-conservative, religous community (a majority at that time) found it to be a moral blight. Why should we need to present such a different type of argument now, to have it reversed?
Why should it be necessary to provide a case study of a desperate little town that finally joined the 21st century and experienced immediate success? This is the same needle in the haystack approach that your fellow anti's keep proposing, while ignoring the fact that making alcohol available hasn't caused 90% of the other cities in the U.S. to go bankrupt and there's no reason to think any differently of Asheboro, NC.
Here are my sources, in support of my posts:
Alcohol use:
Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism. Journal: Alcohol Research & Health: Highlights From the Tenth Special Report to Congress, Health Risks and Benefits of Alcohol Consumption (Volume 24, Number 1, 2000 ed.) Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office. Retrieved October 07, 2002 from the World Wide Web:http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh24-1/05-11.pdf
City Budget:
http://www.ci.asheboro.nc.us/Budget/BUDGET_ORDINANCE_2007_2008.pdf
"I want you to prove there is not a God. Where is your epistemology? I can prove there is a God because I know Him."
I'm enjoying the debate, but I have to toss out how this is arguing logic versus emotion. You FEEL that you know God. That is completely your freedom to do so, but you cannot prove to me, with evidence that there is a God.
Also, if all of you are quoting the bible, why not take a look at what version it is.. and do a bit of reading. Even in a religion 101 course, you pick up on the fact that there are different redactors that have helped to pass along the stories of the bible throughout time. Who is to say that the KJV of the bible is cannon? The "word" has been edited, re-edited, lost, recreated, edited, edited some more, and then finally printed and presented to the masses. It has changed thousands of times over the years. The bible is poetry. It's a beautifully written story, but it's not to be taken literally.
There are far too many people that use their copy (whichever it may be) of the bible as a strict step-by-step translation of their life. It's poetry folks. As far as I'm concerned, it's to be used as a guide. Doesn't the bible (somewhere I'm sure) recommend not working on Sunday? Take a good look at how many folks are working on sunday around Asheboro? Every heathen that must work at the buffets around town.. are they going to be judged for that?
Also, a question to pose before I pass out for the night (not from overindulging of a beverage, but from sheer exhaustion)...
Three points that I had learned from a few different sources (a philosophy course, years of sunday school, etc). God is all knowing. God is all powerful. God is all loving.
These three statements have been cornerstones for many people. Taking that into effect, if God is all knowing/powerful/loving, how do we explain the holocaust? 9/11? "From Justin to Kelly"? If God is all knowing/loving/powerful, couldn't these tragedies have been avoided?
Just something to ponder. I know my answer, and don't have to hear yours... consider it more of a hypothetical musing... something to bring up this wednesday/sunday at service.
....aaaaaaand back to the debate.
Lee has failed to answer my points from a few days ago about how keeping alcohol illegal enriches criminals and deregulates sales so that illegal sellers are not monitored for selling to underage customers. Also, all of the speculations about Greensboro’s crime problems are interesting but ultimately not relevant because there are a myriad of causes, including the often overlooked fact that crime is up everywhere because with Generation Y, the biggest age cohort in American history, there are more young men between ages 15 and 25- prime age and gender for criminal activity. As for what we could expect locally with passage of the referendum, the experience of similar towns shows that crime doesn’t go up- see the NY Times profile I cited or the experiences of police chiefs from Lexington, Thomasville, and Albemarle in going from dry to wet. Crime doesn’t go up, revenue does.
As for objections to the Randleman budget, what does that have to do with this issue? There are tens of thousands of municipalities in the US which have legal alcohol sales, and there is a huge range of difference in how they amass and allocate revenue. Budgetary decisions are up to each community. Regardless of what sort of budget Asheboro has and may decide to have, gaining tax revenue that is being lost to another town allows lower taxes and/or more services. It is a certainty that legal alcohol sales will raise more revenue.
Future economic development predictions should be based on what is to come, not just what is already in place. The new I-73/I-74 corridor will create a new volume of out-of-state north-south traffic well beyond what 220 carries now- 220 is currently a feeder route for regional towns to the main interstates. In the past, Asheboro’s location at the crossroads of highways 64 and 220 has been the deciding factor in area restaurant and motel development, but as I-73/I-74 take primacy businesses will be willing to locate at the most advantageous places along the corridor. All else being equal, Asheboro’s current size and location on 64 would give it a competitive advantage, but all else is not equal- we do not have alcohol sales here. Larger, more upscale restaurant chains get a significant part of their revenue from drinks sales and they cannot afford to pass up that money when they decide to invest in new properties on the new interstate. Similarly, new hotels will want to locate near the newest, nicest restaurants for convenient, desirable amenities. Future economic action will be on the new interstate and Asheboro would be wise to put itself in the driver’s seat for what will be coming.
It seems that a lot of the underlying opposition to the referendum is based in religion even though the anti campaign soft-pedals that in favor of policy points that have been debunked. Wonder why? I was called about a month ago by a telephone survey about the referendum by a caller who represented herself as calling from ‘a national polling organization’ despite a distinctly Asheboro accent and a notably un-professional approach including audible disappointment at my ‘for’ answers to all of the referendum questions. Why must putative Christians bear false witness in the service of ‘morality’ (or as others have pointed out, break the law, steal signs, harass staff at the Committee for Asheboro HQ)? Could it be that there is a particularly self-justifying religious viewpoint at work where ‘the ends justify the means’?
Zorg is a fan of Jefferson, as am I. From Jefferson’s Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom:
“Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either.”
In other words, even though God is the source of faith, He does not attempt to force people to follow or believe. That choice is left up to each of us. Who can be so presumptive as to usurp choices left to us by God about what to believe and how to live? The local Pharisees pray in public and designate themselves as the authorities for interpreting scripture and enforcing it on the rest of us. They should spend less time judging others and trying to tell them how to live their lives and more time living their own lives in an exemplary way if they’re really interested in promoting Christianity to others.
There are obviously different interpretations of Christianity’s compatibility with alcohol use. People should make their own decisions about how to live their own lives as they see fit, but they shouldn’t force them on others.
Matt--"From Justin to Kelly"--now that's funny.
I try Dude, I try.
Also, David.. Well said.
Lee said: "I want you to prove there is not a God. Where is your epistemology? I can prove there is a God because I know Him. "
O. K. Lee, I want you to prove that there are no fairy's in my garden or that there is not a flying teapot circling Jupiter. Proving a negative is at best difficult; asking you to prove that my imaginary friend doesn't exist would be impossible. Again, I am not an atheist. Yes I read more than sunday school apologetic quarterlies. I am not against or attacking christianity any more than any other religious dogma that ask me to check my brain at the door. I have studied the dark side of christianity because I believe strongly the aphoristic truth that, "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Almost every scientific advancement enjoyed by mankind today has had to overcome the retarding effect of organized religion. I learned more years ago than you are old that not everything that proceeds from the pulpit is truth.
With respect to epistemology, how do I know what I know? I know that much of christendom hold the same presuppositionalist position that all other religions hold. "How do I know that there is a God?, because the bible says that there is a God; How do I know that the bible is true? Because God in the bible says that it is true." Pick a religion you will find either this same circularity of reason or you will find, "I know that there is a God because I feel Him." According to anthropologist there are 2500 religions on the planet right now and you have NOT distinguished yourself from any one of them.
With circular reasoning I can "prove" anything. How do I know that Zorg is the most handsome man in the world? Because Mrs. Zorg said he is the most handsome man in the world. How do I know that Mrs Zorg knows who the most handsome man is? Because Zorg said that Mrs Zorg is the final authority on who is handsome.
Lee said: " If you were flying a plane and you knew you were going down, where would you rather land knowing you would have the best human rights?
A) Saudi Arabia
B) Iran
C) Syria
D) USA
Are you trying to prove my point? No, Seriously?
Which century? America during the witch trials? How about being an African American in the south in 1850? 1960? All you can prove with this argument is that your religion has evolved; which brings up the whole immutability issue. You have listed four of the most religious nations on the planet and if you study this at all you will find that violence and religiosity goes hand in hand. How about landing in Holland? Amsterdam? Belgium? They have better records on philanthropy and civil rights than we do. They are also far less religious than we are. If you are trying to prove that we get our morality from the bible.... you don't want to go there.
Matt,
I have been a student of the scriptures in the ancient Hebrew and Greek texts in their original forms...I thought I said that in a previous post. I completely agree that different versions are more reliable than others. I, too, find the "From Justin to Kelly" comment funny and I guess God appreciated the movie a lot better than the rest of us.
I can't explain to you why negatives happen in life. Do you not think there were Christians in the World Trade Center when it collapsed? I can't explain to you why God allows the things He does but I am certain He is in control.
I'm not telling you I "feel" this and that. I have experienced God. Wisdom comes with experience in anything and here I am talking about religion AGAIN when I wanted to keep the debate focused on alcohol. One last thing...if the Bible is simply a book of imagery and prose and the events recorded didn't actually happen, explain how archaeological discoveries are proving the Bible every day. Check out
http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/
I don't really need to see this because I have faith but for those who don't, here is a great site. There are other sites in case you question the validity of this one. I will add that this site challenges a lot of conventional Christian thinking and that is why I trust it.
Judgeth,
You must look into the budget and not just at the table of contents. Read the policies. You won't find earmarks in the table of contents. Also, how many of those businesses you listed have been replaced?
David,
I apologize for not responding to you. I sincerely do not remember your questions or points. Again, there is absolutely zero evidence of alcohol sales lowering taxes. There is just no disputing this! I've used Randleman because they permit the selling of alcohol. Liberty does as well and there have been no economic advantages in Liberty. I'll throw in another town, Albemarle. Their crime rate has risen dramatically since their passing of alcohol. The placing of Asheboro on 64 and 220 is exactly why people will continue to come and stay in Asheboro because where else will they stay? You can't stay in Randleman. You can't stay in Liberty. Oh wait! You can stay in Biscoe but what else is there to do? The restaurants in Asheboro are far superior to anything you will find in either of those alcohol towns and I guarantee you that people will eat in those restaurants as opposed to any in the alcohol towns.
I recently was eating at Rock-Ola (only because I had a coupon - I think their food is awful) with my wife on a Friday night. A man and his seven member family came in and sat across the aisle from use. I overheard him order a beer and the waitress told him that Asheboro was a dry town and that she could not serve him a beer. TO MY SHOCK AND AWE, he and his family STAYED in the restaurant and spent their money anyhow. AMAZING! By listening to all the proponents of alcohol sales, I fully expected him to get up and drive somewhere else to spend his money and cause Asheboro to lose that revenue. He didn't leave because where else is he going to go?
You guys...I can tell ya this. Keep your eyes peeled for a lot of information coming out this week from the anti side. The big guns are now coming out and listen to the facts that will be discussed.
I have seen so much anti-Christian sentiment on this website and you know what? That's ok. I can be slammed as a Christian all day and it won't bother me because I know it will not be long before I can leave it all. You won't have to worry about us pesky, horrible, do-good, blue-haired, Bible thumping, puritanical Christians standing in the way of alcohol proponents. You can have it then!
I have a lot to do today and can't write much today or this week. I do want to say this in case I can't respond to you the rest of the week:
I have been impressed with the level of argument that I have received from the proponents' side. I have enjoyed debating you and each of you guys have been respectful of my position as I have tried to be of yours. Regardless of how the vote goes, I want both sides to come together to make sure steps are taken to ensure the safety of everyone involved. We also have to work to bring the town back together. Regardless of the outcome, I will be willing to do this. I care too much about our town and more than that, our people. I have had a blast with you all the past few days. I honestly thought when I began writing here that you all would be a bunch of nasty, unlearned, hard-headed people but I have been pleasantly surprised. Thank you all for the debate and I won't say, "may the best side win," but I'll say, "May Asheboro win."
This is it for me really...last thing.
Zorg,
I not once said God is real because the Bible says He is. I knew that would not be a legitmate argument for people like you who do not believe. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can't see the wind but you know it is there because you FEEL the effects of the wind. Same with God. You put too much emphasis on two senses or two intelligences. To explain the intelligence comment I would have to have 50 pages but read about Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intelligences which explains there are actually nine intelligences each human possesses. There are many more intelligences than those that rely simply on common senses such as sight and hearing.
Zorg, you know I meant landing the plane in today's time. However, do you think you would have had a better chance in Saudi Arabia during the Salem Witch Trials or 1850's America? Even in those cases which were dark periods in American history, I still would have taken my chances in America.
Again, violence and religiousity does not go hand in hand in all cases. You are making a hyperbole. Are all Muslims terrorists? No. Are all terrorists Muslim? No but 90% are. Do you see Christians killing Christians and Muslims in the Sudan? How about in the ex-Soviet Union? Was it communists killing Buddhists? It was Christians they were killing. Yes, I know Christians have done their share but tell me where Christians are mass murdering and committing genocide today? I'm not talking about those claiming to be Christian just because momma or daddy was. Blowing up abortion clinics in the name of Christ is wrong. The difference between my explaination and all 2500 other religions is this: Jesus Christ. He is the way the truth and the life and no one gets to the Father but by Him...hows that for dogmatism? I can prove there are not fairy's flying around in your backyard because I can go and look. I can prove there is not a teapot flying around Jupiter because satellite technology can show Jupiter. But you have yet to prove God does not exist.
PLEASE tell me how you think the world came into existence. I am so interested in knowing what you think.
100% completely out of here after this...I promise! This is just so much fun I can't help myself! It's like a drug! It's like...what am I looking for...it's like alcohol!
The Asheboro city appropriations are for $21 million dollars. The amount of money expected to come in will be $32 million. Interesting. Where's $11 million dollars coming from and where is it going? It certainly isn't going back to the tax-payer.
Lee said:"Judgeth, You must look into the budget and not just at the table of contents. Read the policies. You won't find earmarks in the table of contents. Also, how many of those businesses you listed have been replaced?"
No more riddles, Lee. Do your own homework and pose a conscise argument. Your goose chases are getting old. I've given you the budget, find it and SUPPORT YOUR OWN ARGUMENT."
Lee said: "The amount of money expected to come in will be $32 million. Interesting. Where's $11 million dollars coming from and where is it going? It certainly isn't going back to the tax-payer."
Another riddle...Lee, you mentioned earlier in this thread that you've "worked with budgets (larger) before". If you've really worked with budgets, then you know the difference between "projections" and actual revenue. Do you want the city to spend money it doesn't have yet? Should they send you a tax rebate check now and then discover they don't have enough money to provide your drinking water?
Stop with the broad strokes, Lee. You have the budget, show us some specific examples of earmarks and frivolous spending. This is an accusation that YOU MADE. You have yet to support it. I'm starting to think you're just simply making it up (i.e. bearing false witness)--not a very Christian thing to do.
This issue is a matter of a city ordinance. Getting drawn into a religous debate about scriptures just takes our eye off the ball.
The anti position, even as delivered by their great leader, Dr. Rogers, is not a religious one. He himself admitted during the City Council Meeting that "he could not provide scripture that said that one should not consume alcohol". That's a quote. I was there.
Instead, his argument is cloaked in other issues such as:
1) Cause more alcohol-related deaths in the city limits of Asheboro.
2) COST the city money, not provide positive revenue.
3) Tax our healthcare workers beyond capacity.
4) NOT attract new business (hotels, restaurants, etc.)
5) NOT help bring relief to residential taxpayers.
This is the stance Dr. Rogers has taken, because he himself knows that simply saying it's stricly a biblical argument would set an entirely different stage. He would then be representing the interest of the ultra-conservative, religious minority. In order to get the extra votes, he has to position this in such a way as to garner the sympathetic vote of Asheboro's lesser-radical citizens.
He has chosen (as Lee has) to send proponents looking for information to support HIS arguments--to make arbitrary claims and then expect others to do the research to prove him wrong.
The FOR committe has provided plenty of statistical and documented arguments. It's now time for the anti's to do the same.
It was Dr. Rogers that begged the City Council for more time to "educate the public" on this issue. Where's the education? Is it just the word of Dr. Rogers? Perhaps he's grown too used to followers simply hanging on his every word, without providing anything tangible to support it.
Don't go on this goose chase anymore. Let THEM present facts and figures. Let THEM provide statistics. Let THEM provide case studies.
The fact that the majority of Asheboro's citizens wish to have access to a legal beverage and have called for a referendum is GOOD ENOUGH reason. This is a Republic, not a religious state.
The people VOTE as we speak and soon we'll hear the voice of the people of Asheboro...that is as long as the radicals are unsuccessful in bullying and shaming them into apathy.
Lee said: "You can't see the wind but you know it is there because you FEEL the effects of the wind. Same with God."
I just don't know what to say........ I'm virtually speechless. I thought about explaining pressure gradients to you but that seems a little silly. If you really think this analogy is sufficient maybe we should talk about your favorite color.
I know you probably think I'm an atheist; and as such you probably think that the only thing keeping me from eating my children is the fact that they may taste a little gamey. You're just gonna have to trust me on this one, there is a strong chance that I am just as ethical as you, especially in lieu of the xenophobic statement that you made: "Are all Muslims terrorists? No. Are all terrorists Muslim? No but 90% are."
Throughout history, inquisitions, slavery, witch-hunts, torture in the name of Jesus would seem to contradict your thesis. The continent of Africa
Priests get death sentence for Rwandan genocide
BBC NEWS April 19, 1998
A court in Rwanda has sentenced two Roman Catholic priests to death for their role in the genocide of 1994, in which up to a million Tutsis and moderate Hutus were killed. Pope John Paul said the priests must be made to account for their actions. Different sections of the Rwandan church have been widely accused of playing an active role in the genocide of 1994...
That's one, shall I continue?
Ireland? Bosnia? Croatia?
LEE SAID: "Even in those cases which were dark periods in American history, I still would have taken my chances in America."
Would you, had you been a Cherokee on the "trail of tears" where 4,000 men, women and children were marched to death? Would you, had you been an African American living in the south? Would you, had you been a woman enduring a repressive misogynistic phallocentric fundamentalist family?
The argument that you are making is about theological and cultural evolution by natural selection. We are not as bad as they are because we have evolved. Fifth century AD church father Augustine advocated torture for heresy and apostasy; Church father St Thomas Aquinas advocated DEATH for apostasy and heresy. Heresy, Lee, such as "Justification by faith through grace alone."
Burning people at the stake not terroristic enough?
LEE Said: "The difference between my explaination and all 2500 other religions is this: Jesus Christ. He is the way the truth and the life and no one gets to the Father but by Him...hows that for dogmatism?"
The very same type of dogmatism and reasoning as Osama bin Laden would make concerning Allah.
Lee said: "I can prove there are not fairy's flying around in your backyard because I can go and look. I can prove there is not a teapot flying around Jupiter because satellite technology can show Jupiter. But you have yet to prove God does not exist."
When you look for the fairy's, what exactly are you looking for. My fairy's are invisible. My fairy's don't want you to see them because they want you to believe in them by faith.
This sounds a little like the God hypothesis doesn't it?
When did NASA send the teapot probe? They would have missed it if they weren't scanning with ultra-violet sensors.
Sounds a little like a theological explanation doesn't it?
I'm going to say this one more time Lee, I am not an atheist. I am playing the devils advocate here to try to get you to move off your presuppositional fanny and think.
Lee said: PLEASE tell me how you think the world came into existence. I am so interested in knowing what you think."
I don't know. However, due to the complexity of the universe, its vastness, its beauty, its majesty; it seems highly unlikely that it is an accident. That being said, if God created it he has to be far more beautiful, majestic, vast, infinite and far more complex than the universe. So, appealing to something more complex to explain why something complex exist seems like infinite regression.
By the way, if you are attempting an Ex nihilo nehil fit ( Out of nothing, nothing comes) argument have I got a lesson in quantum Mechanics for you.
Well I have been very busy lately and have not had time to sit and read everything. I took the time today after another fellow blogger told me that it was nearing 200 comments and it blew my mind that so many people were coming out to voice their opinions. I for one have brought the religion thing into conversation but now I would like to take it out. Please can someone tell me, those AGAINST voters, what is wrong with alcohol besides 'my church says it aint right'? I so far understand what everyone is saying on both sides and obviously agree with the FOR side, but want an educated, non religious answer as to why it is so bad. When you all talk about religion, it leads to much greater issues that alcohol doesnt effect at all.
On the other hand...I voted YES today and am very proud to be voting for a future for Asheboro. Can you say the same?
One more thing that I honestly didnt think about until reading some of these comments:
If all 4 things are voted FOR, would the city allow permits for new businesses?
And to these people say they wont have a choice when it comes to restaurants with alcohol or no alcohol. Yes you will! I know several resturants in Asheboro right now who are oppossed to alcohol that will not get it, so there are choices out there, at least there will be shortly afterwards.
But of course these businesses will reap the consequences.
Here is a few reasons I voted YES:
1.More jobs, which means, less people on public assistance, maybe less property crimes, which means lower unemployment rates locally.
2.Better our environment, I know you are laughing but the extra gas it takes us to ge to work in another town because there are no jobs and the extra it takes us to get to alcohol, this is bad for our ozone.
3.Asheboro could actually be on the map someday for something besides the zoo.
4.Decrease in tax HIKES! No it will not lower taxes but it could possibly effect future increases.
5.Because I want to have a drink with dinner and maybe a Thirsty Thursday at the Copperheads game!
Dude just wants to be able to drink his White Russians at the bowling alley. Vote FOR!
After glancing over the entries for the past few days it looks like lee & Jeffery have high jacked this board. Don't you have a life? Oh that's right, its summer and you're both highly respected educators with plenty of time on your hands. I never thought I miss the ranting and raving of Dr Mary Johnson. Did she check into Camp Butner or find herself a man? I'm sure the managers of the Walmart and Foodline in the dead city of Randleman hope Asheboro votes no on Tuesday. I see a lot of the "devils brew" loaded into cars and vans headed south on hwy 220 to that little piece of heaven you folks call home. What are you going to talk about when this is all over?
Did you have a point, "anonymous"?
"devils brew"...? I thought they stopped brewing Milwaukee's Best / Schlitz a while back.
I'm not sure what the point is to the anon post either.
I will add, however, that Bridget's idea about a thirsty thursday ballgame would be welcomed.
as long as there's no schlitz/milwaukee's best.
One time I went to a party and took a case of Milwakees Best Ice so that no one would ask me for a beer. After realizing I wouldn't be able to stomach it myself, I tried to trade to other people for real beer and couldn't get one single brew. I couldn't even give the stuff away. Milwakees is aweful.
Oh yeah, to the forum, I have been reding this for the last week or so and even contributing here and there. I do have to admit, it got really boring when Lee took the holy roller soapbox. What's up with that? Call me whatever you will, but, unless you're a pastor, there is no reason to have that much knowledge of the bible. I'm sure that I could find all of that debatable information if I tried but I get the impression that there wasn't much searching going on to write all that info down. That's great that you can do that and all, I'm sure God thinks it's wonderful but you've got to get out more. This is an alcohol debate not a bible debate. It should be simple....Coors or Bud Light not wine or grapejuice. Now that everyone is appalled that I would make such a remark, I go to church and all, truth be known,I was a youth leader in one of Asheboros larger churches for around two years. I finally decided that I wasn't ready to devote my life to trying to do everything correctly 24/7. As a youth leader, many eyes are upon you constantly and I didn't feel as if I were a good role model. Regardless, I have read the bible and I understand it,but wouldn't dare use it in this debate. It has no place. This is about choice not religeon.
I second that vote for thirsty Thursdays. Copperheads games are lame, but beer couldn't hurt.
We live in America the last time I checked. That means freedom of choice. The referendum will not be a panacea nor will it be a plague on this community. What voting for will do is bring us in to the modern day where those who visit our community will have more of their expectations met instead of less. Will a visitor who considers a beer with his burger or ribs normal be inclined to return to a "destination" he/she has visited that is dry in this day in age? No. That's bad for us can't you "Safe" supporters see that!
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